[Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:03 pm

supermodel wrote:I think we're gonna see that kid again but perhaps in a way we don't expect. Maybe he only stayed inside a short tine, like if he was only in there two days in pocket time and it ws ten years in RW time, then he has been aging "normally" for ten years and is now a grown man.


If we do see him again, that's an excellent point to make! :thumbup:
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:44 pm

I loved the last two episodes! :D :D

Peter becoming an Observer was really troubling but awesome to see at the same time. Josh Jackson nailed all the little quirks and gestures that the baldies have. I really wonder where are they heading with this? Your Bardo universe seems more and more likely, Darth. Even though I personally wouldn't like to see it end up that way, because all the things that the characters have went through in the last two seasons would be null and void, for everyone except Peter.

I hope that the parallels they are showing between Peter and Walter has more significance than the surface drama it provides. They both seem to be on the path of self-destruction. One has decided to become more than human because of vengeance and grief and the other because of his arrogance, pride and vanity that came with an extraordinary intellect? Both put something in their heads that turns them into something that they really don't want to be. In the end, that Greek saying has to come into play in a BIG, BIG way. Be a better man than your father, Peter! ;)

But I do wonder, is Fringe really going to boil down to Peter stepping out of the machine and making everything fine by being better then Walter? It seems really anticlimaxic to me. But at the moment I see a Bardo universe as an only way if things are going to be okay for the fringe family...

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Peter choosing to get rid of the Observer tech inside his head and starting over with Olivia will be the way he is going to be a better man than his father. And maybe I was right in thinking that Walter's sacrifce will be the thing that saves them all. If he, with his arrogant personality and mind fully restored, in the end chooses love for his son, Olivia and Afro, he will be redeemed. And I thought that Henrietta has to come back in some form, that the timeline has to be re-written one final time but maybe not. Maybe the show will end in the year 2036 with Peter and Olivia getting a second chance to start fresh after they defeat the Observers. Maybe Henry is meant to be, but just has to be born in 2037???

And I wonder how will Olivia fit in the finale puzzle. So far the active components are Peter and Walter. Will Olive get to use her cortexophan abilities before the end? I would sure like to see it.

O.o :w00t: :lol:

Fringe team trying to find an ordinary world:


p.s. I loved the Olive-Asrid talk in the car. The Nina- Walter interaction and once again the brilliant acting by Josh Jackson.
Last edited by WJames on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby JacobsMom on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:13 am

Another crazy episode! :thumbsup:

Seeing Peter slowly take on all these Observer skills has really been interesting. The creepiest part was at the end when Olivia comes home to find Peter is no longer himself but one of "them"! :scared: Once again just when they get back together as a couple, things keep them apart. Peter doing his "variables" scenario took me right back to season 3 with "The Plateau" and all I could think of at the end is I hope Peter doesn't end up like that poor guy(Milo, I think??) from that episode. :(

I wasn't to keen on Darth's theory of this being a flash sideways/Bardo universe but the addition of David Bowie and his music to this episode makes me wonder. Did anyone else hear those lyrics as Walter played the old record? Something about being dead and trying to start over is what I think he was saying. I do hope that there is more to this season than another replay to fix things but who knows? :unsure:

I just want Olivia and Peter to have that perfect life they had in the park at the very beginning. Maybe they can start over if this whole thing works out in the end and the Observers are changed somehow in this weird "time loop"(??) to where the Observers find the love they somehow lost.

Got a kick out the team with Bell's hand and passing it around to open the door! Then Walter is upset when he sees his David Bowie album!! :lol: Seeing those Observers faces melt away even got me to thinking about the Nazis from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" too!
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:38 am

I am trying so hard not to read everyone's comments. I got real sick last night with a super migraine that I just couldn't bring myself to watch it.

But I am going to have a little marathon and watch a few episodes into 5x07 and then I will come back in the morning share thoughts and let myself finally read everyone's comments! (My mom watched it and told me it was freaky! :lol: )


OK Some trains of thought...

5x07 "Five-Twenty-Ten"

Still think these things are allusions and metaphors for the multi-functional aspects of "realizing" what the machines does...

Videos --> [lost] missing pieces -->Walter's Brain Matter---->Walter's tapes found "out of order" (adharma = break downs in dharma) video tape. "course correction"

Asian women at restaurant -->eastern philosophy reminder/Observers China Town

Peter in the car - "white" light (death) --->time travel--->flashes before your eyes (various ways to conscience time travel -Lost Desmond - multiple corporeal universe + FS)

David Bowie "directly" referenced "The Man Who Stole the World"
Lyrics:

Note: s4 episode title: "Neither Here nor There" and thinking about "The Day We Died" + "Peter and the Machine"

We passed upon the stair, we spoke of was and when
Although I wasn't there, he said I was his friend
Which came as some surprise I spoke into his eyes
I thought you died alone, a long long time ago

Oh no, not me
I never lost control
You're face to face
With The Man Who Sold The World

I laughed and shook his hand, and made my way back home
I searched for form and land, for years and years I roamed

I gazed a gazely stare at all the millions here
We must have died alone, a long long time ago

Who knows? not me
We never lost control
You're face to face
With the Man who Sold the World


(Other David Bowie References in Fringe: David Robert Jones is David Bowie's birth name, Film: The Man Who Fell to Earth - Oliver Farnsworth-Thomas Jerome Newton- Northwest Passage car asks Peter where to? Peter says, "Mars" Thomas Gerome Newton's Space suit = bald looking, psychedelic drug culture,

Man Who Fell to Earth bit form wiki:

"Throughout the film are brief sequences of his wife and children back on his home planet, slowly dying, and by the end of the film they are dead and Newton is stuck on Earth, broken, alcoholic, and alone. He creates a recording with alien messages, which he hopes will be broadcast via radio to his home planet. Bryce, who has since married Mary-Lou, buys a copy of the album and meets Newton at an outside restaurant in town. Newton is still rich and young looking despite the passage of many years. However, Newton has also fallen into depression and alcoholism and the film ends with an inebriated Newton passing out in his cafe chair."

The transceiver waiting to receive message = "Ground control to Magor Tom" ---> TV Show named for Bowie's album/influence "Life on Mars" (British version = purgatory, US version 'trip' while on a space ship)

Two beacons = two "machines"

Beacon tie back to "The Arrival" ---September n'sync with Peter's thoughts = Peter n'syn with Olivia's thoughts
Juxtaposition from "hiding" the beacon to "finding" the beacon(s) + green and red lights motif (may also play to loss, gain, loss, gain effect in this time line)

Be Better Than Your Father thesis continues --->Peter is slipping more than Walter,Walter can still admit to being wrong, helps ease Nina's pain with photo (memory) in "safe" as proof of love.

Everyone in time line = fear of loss, fear of change -->death

WINDmark "marked" on WINDow --> Johari Window (like I cheng, except boxes instead of lines)


Outlines of time lines + Observer named "Royce" = Roscoe Joyce (Violet Sedan Chair = Time Machine) -->"The Firefly" ----> can not see "all" variables = can not always see which future will come to pass = mirror Peter (also girl with yellow ball on park bench = "Peter in the machine" comic: Peter sits on park bench traveling in time with September. Peter unknowingly interacts with an older version of his son, Henry, by giving him back his ball...)

The "missing variable" (missing piece) is the "com" (communication device) = radio receiver.
Speculation: may hear a message from the other time line to come home or just hear what they are doing "there" and may play to confusing non matching situation here....or it's William Bell (see comic: Ghost Written)

Observer named "Mueller" = Alias Mueller Device (Bee hive mind + behavior modification)

That's it for now...
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:08 pm

Am I the only one who feels the last few episodes have been a bit slow? I'm a little tired of the tape of the week and I'm very frustrated that Olivia has almost nothing to be but stand around and look worried. The focus is very much on Walter and Peter, and I guess that's OK but she really doesn't do anything. Yes, I get it that we're seeing a new Olivia who lets herself have feelings and emotions and she's trying hard to do things differently. But could we also see her use her intellect and cop instincts etc.? She has been pretty much sidelined. I'd like to see a stronger reaction to Peter's actions.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:40 pm

supermodel wrote:Am I the only one who feels the last few episodes have been a bit slow? I'm a little tired of the tape of the week and I'm very frustrated that Olivia has almost nothing to be but stand around and look worried. The focus is very much on Walter and Peter, and I guess that's OK but she really doesn't do anything. Yes, I get it that we're seeing a new Olivia who lets herself have feelings and emotions and she's trying hard to do things differently. But could we also see her use her intellect and cop instincts etc.? She has been pretty much sidelined. I'd like to see a stronger reaction to Peter's actions.


Well I think you have a good point that we keep basically see Olivia be in denial or sidelined, but I think this focus on Walter and Peter (and Windmark) is thematically important to this experience, because it could be "a test" for Peter to prove himself and/or come to understand "how" people loose their humanity...

Seasons 1 & 3 really homed more in on Olivia and Walter IMO and it was Peter that was sidelined until we get into season 3, which is why I think the amber time line is an experience that goes back to relationship issues that were happening at that time for all of them and resets back to Olivia and Walter issues and now comes back to Walter, Walternate, and Peter issues, but digs deeper by facing something that IMO the machines are a piece of the technological advancement of: The Observers.

IMO Fringe's biggest idea is this idea that future generations have to be willing to "fight" to be better than the generations that came before. We have to be better than our [fore] fathers. But that idea is presented through Peter and Walter(s) specifically and for Peter to understand, gain knowledge, and insights by "coming from it through a different perspective" (He's an "Observer" now), then he may be able to learn how to "avoid" these previous pitfalls...

It's unclear to me, if it will be Olivia's "love" than can save Peter here, or if she is going to be the price Peter has to pay for his hubris actions and if he can learn something other than revenge from that loss? IMO those are the only two ways I can see the amber time line ending, unless somehow saving her, or getting shot himself (mirror September), just uncontrollably starts time traveling, drifting, until he comes back to the bridge room...

It's possible that there could be a reset with in the amber time line too, but I am still leaning towards 'going back to where you have always been' instead.

Do I think they are slower? A little, but they are still really good episodes IMO, because they are very emotional and very character driven-focused episodes. I think it's important to really look at who these people are/could be before we say goodbye to them for good.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:20 pm

DarthLocke wrote:
supermodel wrote:Am I the only one who feels the last few episodes have been a bit slow? I'm a little tired of the tape of the week and I'm very frustrated that Olivia has almost nothing to be but stand around and look worried. The focus is very much on Walter and Peter, and I guess that's OK but she really doesn't do anything. Yes, I get it that we're seeing a new Olivia who lets herself have feelings and emotions and she's trying hard to do things differently. But could we also see her use her intellect and cop instincts etc.? She has been pretty much sidelined. I'd like to see a stronger reaction to Peter's actions.


Well I think you have a good point that we keep basically see Olivia be in denial or sidelined, but I think this focus on Walter and Peter (and Windmark) is thematically important to this experience, because it could be "a test" for Peter to prove himself and/or come to understand "how" people loose their humanity...

Seasons 1 & 3 really homed more in on Olivia and Walter IMO and it was Peter that was sidelined until we get into season 3, which is why I think the amber time line is an experience that goes back to relationship issues that were happening at that time for all of them and resets back to Olivia and Walter issues and now comes back to Walter, Walternate, and Peter issues, but digs deeper by facing something that IMO the machines are a piece of the technological advancement of: The Observers.

IMO Fringe's biggest idea is this idea that future generations have to be willing to "fight" to be better than the generations that came before. We have to be better than our [fore] fathers. But that idea is presented through Peter and Walter(s) specifically and for Peter to understand, gain knowledge, and insights by "coming from it through a different perspective" (He's an "Observer" now), then he may be able to learn how to "avoid" these previous pitfalls...

It's unclear to me, if it will be Olivia's "love" than can save Peter here, or if she is going to be the price Peter has to pay for his hubris actions and if he can learn something other than revenge from that loss? IMO those are the only two ways I can see the amber time line ending, unless somehow saving her, or getting shot himself (mirror September), just uncontrollably starts time traveling, drifting, until he comes back to the bridge room...

It's possible that there could be a reset with in the amber time line too, but I am still leaning towards 'going back to where you have always been' instead.

Do I think they are slower? A little, but they are still really good episodes IMO, because they are very emotional and very character driven-focused episodes. I think it's important to really look at who these people are/could be before we say goodbye to them for good.


Great post! Especially the last part. I have to say that I enjoyed this season more then any other and I keep being fascinated with the way these writers minds work. I honestly don't watch any other drama show on tv right now. Not one, only Fringe. Tried to watch Revolution but that turned to be crap. So there is Fringe for me and Game of Thrones when its on. I may try Arrow and Person of Interest when Fringe is done.

p.s. Hope you are feeling better Darth. :thumbup:
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:35 am

WJames wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:
supermodel wrote:Am I the only one who feels the last few episodes have been a bit slow? I'm a little tired of the tape of the week and I'm very frustrated that Olivia has almost nothing to be but stand around and look worried. The focus is very much on Walter and Peter, and I guess that's OK but she really doesn't do anything. Yes, I get it that we're seeing a new Olivia who lets herself have feelings and emotions and she's trying hard to do things differently. But could we also see her use her intellect and cop instincts etc.? She has been pretty much sidelined. I'd like to see a stronger reaction to Peter's actions.


Well I think you have a good point that we keep basically see Olivia be in denial or sidelined, but I think this focus on Walter and Peter (and Windmark) is thematically important to this experience, because it could be "a test" for Peter to prove himself and/or come to understand "how" people loose their humanity...

Seasons 1 & 3 really homed more in on Olivia and Walter IMO and it was Peter that was sidelined until we get into season 3, which is why I think the amber time line is an experience that goes back to relationship issues that were happening at that time for all of them and resets back to Olivia and Walter issues and now comes back to Walter, Walternate, and Peter issues, but digs deeper by facing something that IMO the machines are a piece of the technological advancement of: The Observers.

IMO Fringe's biggest idea is this idea that future generations have to be willing to "fight" to be better than the generations that came before. We have to be better than our [fore] fathers. But that idea is presented through Peter and Walter(s) specifically and for Peter to understand, gain knowledge, and insights by "coming from it through a different perspective" (He's an "Observer" now), then he may be able to learn how to "avoid" these previous pitfalls...

It's unclear to me, if it will be Olivia's "love" than can save Peter here, or if she is going to be the price Peter has to pay for his hubris actions and if he can learn something other than revenge from that loss? IMO those are the only two ways I can see the amber time line ending, unless somehow saving her, or getting shot himself (mirror September), just uncontrollably starts time traveling, drifting, until he comes back to the bridge room...

It's possible that there could be a reset with in the amber time line too, but I am still leaning towards 'going back to where you have always been' instead.

Do I think they are slower? A little, but they are still really good episodes IMO, because they are very emotional and very character driven-focused episodes. I think it's important to really look at who these people are/could be before we say goodbye to them for good.


Great post! Especially the last part. I have to say that I enjoyed this season more then any other and I keep being fascinated with the way these writers minds work. I honestly don't watch any other drama show on tv right now. Not one, only Fringe. Tried to watch Revolution but that turned to be crap. So there is Fringe for me and Game of Thrones when its on. I may try Arrow and Person of Interest when Fringe is done.

p.s. Hope you are feeling better Darth. :thumbup:


Thanks :blush: (and I am feeling better. I think I just had severe allergies :) )

It's feels so weird being at the end of a show again! There's a part of me that thinks I am fine with it, but even now rereading my own last paragraph, I'm getting teary-eyed and wish we could have a little bit more! :cry:

Revolution is getting better. IMO episodes 6 & 7 are on par with what I would expect/hope for (You know me, I rarely criticize Bad Robot, but boy, some of those episode O.o ) Person of Interest on the other hand is always good! I think it's more of a political crime drama that has some science fiction elements. It's still really character driven, though. I think you would like it! (Season 2 is starting to get into artificial intelligence more...) I can't wait for GOT to come back! -And I might give Arrow a shot too!

-But I really hope that Joel Wyman's and Abram's futuristic-buddy-cop-android-drama (wish it would have name! :rofl: ) gets picked up! -Wyman had stated it will be Fringe's current same writing team (which I'm hoping that means David Fury will stay on too!) :thumbup:

Anyway,s now I am just rambling again! Cheers to happy Fringe ending no matter when or where it is!! :thumbsup:
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:12 pm

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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:56 pm

Wow, not a single post about last week's episode. Is that a sign that people weren't impressed?

I thought it was good but not great. This episode was all about emotion and there was little action. We are nearing the end and I want every week to be great! I guess shippers must be happy with all the focus on Olivia and Peter's relationship, but that has never interested any more than the other relationships on this show.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 pm

supermodel wrote:Wow, not a single post about last week's episode. Is that a sign that people weren't impressed?

I thought it was good but not great. This episode was all about emotion and there was little action. We are nearing the end and I want every week to be great! I guess shippers must be happy with all the focus on Olivia and Peter's relationship, but that has never interested any more than the other relationships on this show.



I liked it, but just have been busy....these were my thoughts from the episode (from the main site)
Some thoughts:

Word Play - Ella, "Simon Says..." ---> Simon (Foster) ---> Simone (Oracle) ---> Some one is coming...

What I love about the episode is that although I think Olivia is right, that there might always be an explanation to 'the mysteries of the universe' (little wink to Dharma Initiative there), even if we can't always see the origins (White Tulips), that ultimately Simone is still right, that just because you can explain something, doesn't mean that it isn't important, or doesn't mean anything, because humanity has a will and can feel deeply, we, at the very least, believe in our relationships...and it is those we love that we must hold onto and remember. (This is also the point and thought behind LOST IMO - an Island - time machine full of semi-controlled Fringe events/Astral Projections and white tulips)

On another note this episode definitely has the hallmarks of what was presented last season when we were introduced to this amber timeline...We had this idea of "Effect Before the Cause" and a few individuals who could see the immediate future, but also the way this devise can be removed in a rather simplistic manner, seemingly with no effects or real explanation of why it's so simple, goes back to how easy it was to unbridge the machines...

I like the concept about the "True Churches"....that there would be places that one could go and confess/negotiate information where they could not be "read" or possibly harmed by the Observers....again I am reminded Lost's FS, (and The Lamp Post and Mrs. Hawking, and of course these videos are like Dharma's and go along with the idea of 'Lost's missing pieces').

I also liked that Anil keeps showing up and that he continues to help Olivia. He;s another really nice secondary character!

I also had a feeling Peter was out of his league with Windmark, since all Observers could also map out futures. But I ma curious that they conceive of 'right' and 'wrong', and reseted trajectories, especially when we go back to what was happening during season's one and two with September, Henry's birth, and the machines...It makes me wonder why it is the majority of them DON"T fight each other?...that they generally want the same future goal!??

I'm Looking Foward to the next episode though and what we can eventually do with this electro magnet!


---------

I think the episode was good, but not an epic episode in terms of an episode to come back to after a two week hiatus. -I feel like this time line has some very slap-bang aspects to it still (which obviously makes me think of Bardo - ethereal plane again). In terms of Olivia having a moving episode, I think it was important, because the only other time she has gone after Peter was at the end of season 2, which is maybe when the character is the most warmly and directly expressive. Thier relationship does interest me, because I think it is important to the quantum mechanics in being "successful"...their love might 'cause' change in the cycles of the universes this time around...

I also really liked the Peter fighting Windmark and other Observer scenes!
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:34 pm

5x09 Black Blotter

One of my favorites of the season!

Some thoughts:

The code word "black umbrella" made me think of "umbrella term" (umbrella organization)

And word play: black blotter--->black umbrella--->black hole (death/unknown)

It seems like there were a lot of allusions to the end of season 3 again. Peter has a head injury, Walter on drugs, going to an Island to use key piece in saving universes, Olivia and Peter reconcile for Peter's mistake, ect.

Nice to have some tie-backs and acknowledgements: The child Observer "remembers" (or has glimpsed seen visions of) Olivia and/or the previous blue time line. This Sam was helping Donald and the resistance, Carla appears to play devil's advocate, Amber Bell attempted to fulfill Walter's 'Brave Ne World' ideas, and Walter wrestles with leaving the lab and taking another boy away from "home" again...

The episode again reminded me of LOST with the way the dead bodies are found and pin pointing a transceiver location (pattern repeating on a loop = multiple iterations of time line + death/smoke monster "It killed them. It killed them all"). Both shows have Wizard of Oz references and themes. Plus "Michael and Walt" = Father and Son.
(We're gonna have to take the the boy/The Boy must live)

In some ways it was a sad episode, because again it's almost like this is all a test and it almost felt like one solution was to not pursue the child observer and continue making this weapon...I kind of flash back to Hurley during the season 1 finale when he tries to stop Locke from opening the hatch and is yelling, "No! Stop! The numbers are bad!"

Really beautifully written and acted episode.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:59 pm

Black Blotter

AMAZING! I loved this LSD induced episode!!! (but kids, Don't do drugs! ;) )

After watching the episode twice, I'm back to thinking that they are setting Walter for some final sacrifice because ultimately he is basically the origin point of most of the Fringe in "Fringe". After these last two episodes, Darth, I can't see Wyman pulling a Bardo solution to this timeline where Peter is still inside the machine. I don't think it will happen. This timeline is as corporeal as the one from s1-3. But what could easily happen is another, final, hopefully happy timeline ( reset ) in the end done through some other means, a.k.a. Walter's and September's plan to defeat the Observers.

In the cartoon Walter takes the key from evil Walter, whom gets eaten by a frog and opens the tree that guards the secrets. The tree is filled with babies and a black umbrella. He opens the black umbrella and gets sucked into a tube while the mouth in the sky is smiling after eating a chicken.

Now lets analyze this, because I think that the cartoon is a bit more then just a clever Monty Phyton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo homage while Walter rumbles his mind in a search for the password.
Walter has companions in this, they help him get to his goal and defeat the evil Walter who is guarding the secrets. Maybe Peter is the frog, saving him from bad Walter, Astrid is Gene, carrying him along the way, Olivia the dog and Nina? the seahorse? There is also a green light traveling with them, LSD fairy? Anyway, the tree is filled with babies. Maybe they represent the cortexiphan children? They are a part of what the key unlocks. But the most important thing is the black umbrella, which actually represents another child, the Observer Boy who seems to be integral to the plan of defeating the Observers. After Walter opens the black umbrella it lightens up and he is not needed any more and gets sucked into a tube, the mouth (God? also reminds me of the cheshire cat from Alice in wonderland) eats a chicken (representing sacrifice?) and seems happy.

Or maybe I'm looking too much into it. But there is one more thing that stuck in my mind. The Observer Boy is called Michael!!! And our favorite baldie is played by an actor called Michael Cerveris! Maybe a hint from Wyman?! Michael is September? That would actually explain his fondness of Olivia and interest in Bishops! I hope that he is An Enemy of Fate! And I hope we get to see Cerveris one more time as September in the finale!

One more thing; Is evil Walter the actual ultimate bad guy/villain or just an obstacle on the way to defeat the Observers? And is he, through all the work he's done, somehow, the one who created them in some other timeline??? The sum of his work?

I love this show!
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:48 pm

I too anaylised the T.G. styled video after being asked by a friend...


There is a "Hand" pushing Walter along to his destination. We could say this is a metaphor for "helping hand" or "hand of fate". -It depends if "Fate" (macro-cosmic evolutionary cycles) is truly something that can be broken or changed, or if we have to wait for change to occur. (because in Many Worlds/Universe Theory there are no paradoxes because all possible realities will or are occurring at the same time...it gets down to which time line came first in relation to how any other is created- families of time lines/Sir Roger Penrose's Conformal Cycle Cosmology).

It may represent the delema with with fate or what fate is in general.

The idea that Walter is traveling the world is pointing out innovation of the history of the world, as Walter is one of those innovators. -We couldn't have a lot of things from architecture, art, advances in travel and exploration, with out the capacity to consciencely conceive, imagine, or "design". It then goes back to God. Quote from Astrid "God helps those that help themselves." = we have to be responsible and try to take charge/be MINDFUL of our actions, despite evolutionary road blocks.

(Hands/Gemini is a symbol of creation. Feet/Pisces is a symbol of direction)

The dog is "Toto", because the writers want us to think about what HOME is. -which might be where the heart is (compassion)...if we don't loose sight of that, then we can save ourselves for the better. The frog and seahorse, as you said, are glyphs (water creatures = BLUE universe = conscience/water/memory and Frogs are symbols of rebirth/ cycles of life in some cultures such as Ancient Egyptian), which represent codes and patterns both in the universe and then possibly in relation to Walter "making" reality the way he wants it, as they come off of the assembly line."If you dream a better world, you can make a better world."

Then he fights the worst part of himself, the Knight, who is really an Arch BISHOP with a lot of "armor" on (-->denial "God Complex") , the one who pretends he is God, or a type of savior/knight in shinning armor in the name of God. (Knight and Bishop also double as "chess pieces" and strategy to "win" the game of life, control fate/evolution)...By fighting himself, the universe "wipes" out Walter's work or awareness to his work (the glyphs are squished by a foot) but then he remembers the code....

1. Either no matter what, 'Walter' is meant to innovate, it's just this time his reason is very different, because he basically is coming full circle to stop what he started, and/or...

2. It's possible that other versions Walter (and Bell) are the forefathers of the Observers and were possibly designed to help control fate, collect universal data, ect, but ultimately, because of the poor unthoughtful ways (fringe events, using children for war) they came to be created, have they come back to seek revenge and represent a macro-personification of all Walters' hubris actions. It may not be about defeating them, as much as "how" or "for what reason" they can be defeated, or it might be about taking the high road (sacrifice/accepting death), but clearly he fears loosing himself to them, and betraying the rest of humanity, as the Observers may not have done so themselves, if they had never been created...(although there is a good argument that the Observers have to take their own responsibility too, as sentinel beings, and that nothing is ever just one person's fault alone, as the universe(s) are made up of too many variables allowing uncertainty principal to remian true aka we all 'think we know, what we do not know'...

3. It also occurs to me, speaking of the idea of placing blame on one single person, William Bell was danced around by association, but never once mentioned in the episode. It's curious when we consider that he is a motivating factor and accelerator of Walters works and his HAND was needed to gain access to two Beacons Bell had hidden. We know from s4 that the beacons can lock and/or unlock Observers (and maybe even people?) in and out of universes, as Peter had to help September get back in. This may hint at either who the child observer is (September?) and/or why a child Observer is needed in Walter's plan...


----------

IMO the GREEN fairy is reference to Peter Pan, while the back umbrella may reference Mary Poppins...both about "flying" ( magic/dreams/faith), but are juxtapositions and a metaphor for youthful adventures verses an elder's wisdom AKA maturity = responsibility.

Walter took a child (a boy) from his home and is going to "use" him in some way. It doesn't bode well with him wanting to be someone else, as the cost of creating has been the expensive of using children in war...

Note: about Micheal. I def think it is a shout out to September, but also Eliot Michaels is the name of the CIA agent looking for the child observer (one of many) in "Inner Child", plus I also think it's a nod to LOST as Michael and Walt are father and son...like Jack and David in Lost's FS, Walter reads to Michael Through the Looking Glass, suggesting again a type of "father" and son dynamic between Walter, Michael and or the Observers.

The Tree of babies is "The Tree of Life" = Tree of Knowledge: life extension, life cycles, and family. (and like the various states of reality Walter finds himself in, is a mataphor for multiple universe and 'branch offs' = offspring, a future...)

Good job on spotting the gang! But I think Astrid is Toto, Gene is Gene, Peter is the frog, and Olivia the seahorse.

Although it may not turn out to be Bardo, It could still be, as the point of Bardo is to be tested. -For Walter it's about facing his own existentialism. It's clearer in this episode it about everyone fighting against their own [previous-repeating] actions (Peter not becoming Walternate, Walter not becoming younger Walter/Walternate, Olivia not turning her back on those she loves, ect), more than it is about fighting the Observers face on. The characters are their own enemy of fate...because they have created it. (The Observers, the machines, ect...)
Image
Image

Yet for all their evolution, they form no bonds.
Love does not exist for them. They are incapable of dreaming,
Of contemplating beauty, Of knowing something greater than themselves.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:40 pm

Nice post, a good read.

2. It's possible that other versions Walter (and Bell) are the forefathers of the Observers and were possibly designed to help control fate, collect universal data, ect, but ultimately, because of the poor unthoughtful ways (fringe events, using children for war) they came to be created, have they come back to seek revenge and represent a macro-personification of all Walters' hubris actions. It may not be about defeating them, as much as "how" or "for what reason" they can be defeated, or it might be about taking the high road (sacrifice/accepting death), but clearly he fears loosing himself to them, and betraying the rest of humanity, as the Observers may not have done so themselves, if they had never been created...(although there is a good argument that the Observers have to take their own responsibility too, as sentinel beings, and that nothing is ever just one person's fault alone, as the universe(s) are made up of too many variables allowing uncertainty principal to remian true aka we all 'think we know, what we do not know'...


I especially agree with this.

3. ...We know from s4 that the beacons can lock and/or unlock Observers (and maybe even people?) in and out of universes, as Peter had to help September get back in.


I forgot about that from season 4 and that rune device. Surely that has to come into play again. That and William Bell. His story definitely seems unfinished ATM. Hmm, I didn't see any sightings or media reports about Nimoy coming back (or Cerveris for that matter!!!). I hope they filmed some extra finale scenes for him in secret or possibly last year. I would even be satisfied with a young actor playing a version of him. Maybe Wyman has something in his sleeve that surprises us?!

But I think Astrid is Toto, Gene is Gene, Peter is the frog, and Olivia the seahorse.
Makes sense. Astrid=Toto= :lol: I assumed she was the cow :blush: because she always takes care of him, is by his side, Walter relies on her and in a way rides his way though life on her being there for him but Gene being Gene makes much, much more sense. ;)

Although it may not turn out to be Bardo, It could still be, as the point of Bardo is to be tested. -For Walter it's about facing his own existentialism. It's clearer in this episode it about everyone fighting against their own [previous-repeating] actions (Peter not becoming Walternate, Walter not becoming younger Walter/Walternate, Olivia not turning her back on those she loves, ect), more than it is about fighting the Observers face on.

I agree on that kind of Bardo. Definitely a timeline waiting to be re-written, though, maybe not in the end , we'll see. But definitely not Peter inside the machine reveal.

The characters are their own enemy of fate...because they have created it. (The Observers, the machines, ect...)


That is why I liked the title: Enemies of Fate better. That was how Wyman worded it in the video interview at the party. Strange that he made a mistake like that because we know now that the title is: An Enemy of Fate. Which is why I am 99,9% sure that it refers to the bald observer boy. It just wouldn't work if they decided to make Peter the ultimate protagonist again like in the season 3 finale when they placed him in the machine, or to give Olive mega powers again. It could work with Walter as some kind of starting and finishing point (Alpha and Omega) which I think will happen in some measure, but it works best with the boy. And even more if he actually is September, the only one of his kind that is different.
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