[Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

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[Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:13 pm

"Back to When You've Never Been"

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In an effort to find a way home, Peter journeys to the Other Side to confront Walternate. His venture proves more dangerous than expected. Meanwhile, Olivia receives a dire premonition from an Observer in the all-new "Back to Where You've Never Been" Winter Premiere episode of FRINGE airing Friday, Jan. 13 (9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (FR-408) (TV-14 L, V)

Cast: Anna Torv as Olivia Dunham; Joshua Jackson as Peter Bishop; John Noble as Walter Bishop; Lance Reddick as Phillip Broyles; Blair Brown as Nina Sharp; Jasika Nicole as Astrid Farnsworth; Seth Gabel as Lincoln Lee
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby WJames on Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm

This was a nice setup episode which I enjoyed very much. From Elisabeth and Peter having a beautiful mom son moment to Peter realizing that this Walternate is basically a decent man. I loved the dream sequence and I miss those versions of characters almost as much as Peter! Finally the ball started rolling on the mythology front and I hope that this trend continues in the next episodes also! I don't quite approve or like to watch the Olivia/Lincoln romance but we'll see where the writers take us, especially now that "Olivia has to die"! Who shot September? Why does she have to die in all possible futures? And is it all possible futures for all possible timelines; blue, red, yellow, green or just this amber one??? Questions, questions, questions!!! :S :w00t: O.o :thumbup:

8/10

We should have a grading poll in this discussion for the episode threads?!
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby Xindilini on Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:42 pm

This is the TRUST NO ONE episode that really appeals to me.

Fringe has achieved cult status at last, pulling it farther away from mainstream television.

The symbolism in the dream sequence are plenty. Choices. It was a little difficult to figure out what Walter said at first. I know Walter and Olivia said that Peter wanted waffles. This I liken to home. Pancakes, on the other hand, was where he was. The waffle iron was THE MACHINE. Do you think IT needed fixing?

The first seven episodes served to entice new viewers, that's the reason for the repetitive nature. This is a departure. Definitely forward momentum in this episode. None of the echoes from the past are stale when they brought in with the threat to the alternate universe. It's good to have Secretary Bishop on side for a change.

And Peter... He has earned my respect for the first time, without saying a word. He has validated my unfailing faith in alt-Olivia. "At the end of the day, you will do the right thing." :thumbsup:

September's dying breath brings many questions. He was definitely pulled from time to deliver Olivia the message. When in time did he come? His warning that Olivia meets the same fate in all futures, reminds of the end of 3x19 Lysergic Acid Diethylamide, when Olivia knew Man X will kill her.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:22 am

Where to start!? :w00t:

I loved the complexity of the episode and the idea that in this set of parallel universes the results are so far a bit different than Peter’s timeline, conveying a few ideas. 1. That the difference of a person can make all the difference, 2.but that even so there are still things left, or unresolved ‘here’ to come back and haunt us as viewers.

The Walters make the best case on the difference front. Walter is so devastated about the loss of two Peters, that he refuses to go through it again, and ultimately leads Peter to Walternate, whom because his son had died and not just been missing/stolen, has comes to terms and has progressed to be a non vengeful being, but someone looking for solutions.

Interestingly neither Walter denies their association with the machine(s)…as we still don’t understand how theirs have been activated and have made a bridge with out Peter…but almost puts me back on the theory that Peter is an engineered being theory, a clone child of some long lost Walter…

The episode IMO linked us back with “The Plateau”, “August”, “LSD”, and perhaps forcing us to look at Septembers words in “The Firefly”.

We see a humoniod shape shifter try and escape the other side’s Fringe division. -He jumps on a bus! (Walter rode on top of one in “LSD”) and did not see where he was going, as he was struck by another! (Milo Stanfield caused a chain reaction using a pen to have a women get killed by a bus)

But the episode links to “August” in ways that surely makes us sad. --We see that Observers can defect and sacrifice themselves for the sake of others they love. --September gets shot in saving Peter, but also warns this Olivia about her fate…a fate a recognized from both “LSD’s” memory of the illusive Mr. X, and from her near death experience in “Wallflower” on floor 23! (Jack Shepp’s number)

The episode is somewhat mythology orientated. Not only did we come to understand the there are still cycles repeating here, but that perhaps and hopefully what September said in “The Firefly” will hold up---that he can not see what future should come to pass, and there for like Peter in the episode, we see his knowledge only goes so far in a very complicated structure of looping parallel universes.

The one thing that came to mind when September told this Olivia of her fate, and the fates of all the others, was once again Desmond David Hume in LOST. So many times did I parallel Peter to him, and have paralleled September to Peter, but once again does this “new” random act of telling Olivia her fate, actually change the outcome of something? -In Lost Desmond could see many visions of Charlie Pace’s deaths, which IMO where memories of his deaths from other timelines. These visions gave Desmond a choice to save or not save Charlie, or to even tell Charlie. It’s true in LOST that Desmond couldn’t save Charlie from death, but he did give Charlie knowledge of his death to gibe him “an opportunity to” give meaning and change the reason for it. LOST in that sense was about spiritual progression and not so much about a physical progression. I am hoping that FRINGE is looking for physical answer and not just a spiritual one, and that this Olivia and his own can be saved and that this is what “Peter and the Machine pt1” was hinting at.

Additionally, despite the fact I read and post all of the spoilers, I should have seen this Storyline with Jones coming! Before the season started I made a poll about “what does the machine do?” My reason for doing so was as follows:

“On With Season 4! -But I thought as we venture into the unkown the effects of the Machine, I started to think about all of the things we are going to see and if we could possibly be having a Christmas Carol like sanaro, where the machine is still only showing Peter "what if sanarios" verses, actually physically changing the universes, verses Peter just traveling to different time lines to gain information....and one day he may return to where we left off before he got into the machine....or not “


My link to the Christmas Carol was once again to do with paralleling Peter to Lost’s Desmond and thinking about such episodes as “The Constant”, but despite that the show runners also came to use ‘the Christmas Carol’ as way to describe Peter’s relationship with the machine(s), they also may have been far far ahead me.


In light of knowing David Robert Jones would appear in this episode, I rewatched Jones episodes, starting with “In Which We Meet Mr. Jones”…

I had guessed a few episodes ago that in this timeline Walternate would not be the problem and that these new shape shifters may come from someone else, and my suspicions lie with Massive Dynamic and this version of Nina Sharp, at least as an origin…

We know our blue Jones was a former MD scientist who went rogue and become somewhat of a front man to ZFT. We first learned of ZFT in “In Which We Meet Mr. Jones” as Astrid tries to figure out a cyphor from a sheet given to her from Mitchell Loeb’s wife, Samantha, which is on back of a “Christmas Carol” flyer!

So weather these shape shifters come directly from Nina and Massive Dynamic is still a bit early to tell, but there was another clue that tied back to the a second story in one of FRINGE Prequel comic series.

"Hard Copy" follows an investigative journalist, a member of the Massive Dynamic family, to one of the companies research sites. Eager to delve into the secrets within, she learns an interesting tidbit about cloning.”


A reporter goes to a farm to explore Massive Dynamics secret cloning project which includes the reporter examining a cloned chicken. She learns that the clones are “Odd-Eyed” …but by the time we get to the end of the comic, she too has become replaced by a clone!

-This isn’t the first time Nina and MD have linked to clones…in “Of Human Action” we learn the boy with mind control abilities, Tylor Carson, is a clone and part of a Penrose-Carson experiment!

As I have said before, I am pretty sure all of these things relate to the evolution of the Observers themselves and that it’s curious about September’s sacrifice.

This also leads me to wonder about the idea of using a clone in inter dimensional space to become a “substitute” variable? --If the Observers can change fate by taking the place [in death] of others???

I truly loved the episode and look forward to seeing where the plot may go with Jones and Nina, ZFT or Massive Dynamic….and to prove that our Olivia truly knew her others selves would be threatened by a “Mr. X”, and to see if Peter can ever go home and if any of this will follow him when he gets there?!

Xindilini wrote:This is the TRUST NO ONE episode that really appeals to me.

Fringe has achieved cult status at last, pulling it farther away from mainstream television.

The symbolism in the dream sequence are plenty. Choices. It was a little difficult to figure out what Walter said at first. I know Walter and Olivia said that Peter wanted waffles. This I liken to home. Pancakes, on the other hand, was where he was. The waffle iron was THE MACHINE. Do you think IT needed fixing?



Curious!

In the come Peter and the Machine Pt2---there is an issue that one of the parts need fixed...in an unknown time period, Peter goes to a mythological Irish Island, with advanced technology and possibly a futuristic city, and meets a mythological Irish figure, who tells him one of his last three machine parts is broken and, "The machine part is easy to fix, if you know how."
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby JacobsMom on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:01 am

So nice to finally have Fringe back on at last! :) I've really missed the quirky jokes and banter between the characters. Seeing another dream sequence that Peter has this time around was wonderful! I agree with WJames that I truly miss our old characters from the original universe. :( I also agree with Xindilini that the dream sequence was full of hidden messages. TPTB are so good at that. :thumbup:

Things I noticed:

Walter's bear claw slippers in the dream!
The "mirror image" of Walter in the lab.
Peter believes that "this" Olivia also has the ability to cross over but "this" Olivia has no idea of that ability.
Loved the Nissan Leaf even though it was product placement once again.
Peter has a remote?? He uses it after they cross over at the Orpheum theater. :huh:
Great moment when the 2 Lincoln's meet...."Agent Lee, I presume." :lol:
Other Olivia says to Peter, "Who the hell are you?" :lol:
Elizabeth didn't get any aging makeup...I felt that made her character look out of place in those scenes.
I believe that Broyles too is a shape shifter! :scared:
Was Jones face all messed up or did I just think it was??

Favorite scene:
I LOVED the scene between Peter and Elizabeth! Looking past the fact that she looked the same age as him, it was so nice that at last Peter is recognized immediately. Only a mother would do that. She looked into those eyes and knew this was her son. :wub:

Best 1st twist:
The fact that "this" Walternate is really a good guy trying to stop these shape shifters and the cool twist that Brandon was in fact a shape shifter who has infiltrated the government. I hope we get to see Walternate interrogate this thing! :lol:

Best 2nd twist:
The return of Doctor Jones!!! :thumbup:

Thoughts on "this" Olivia:

Is Nina still injecting her with cortexiphan and that is why Olivia has always had migraines?? :hmm:
Olivia doesn't know she has the ability to cross over and this is what Nina may be waiting to test for at last?
Is Mr. Jones possibly Mr. X or is Mr. X someone totally different from Olivia's universe?
Is the whole reason that Peter is here in these other universes the fact that he must help them in order to save all the Olivia's from their fate?

Good lines:
"Hey scarecrow, come on. The flying monkeys are coming." Peter to Lincoln
"Not everything is as it seems." Walternate
"You're not the man I thought you'd be." Peter to Walternate
"You're exactly the man I thought you'd be." Walternate to Peter
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:19 pm

^ I was torn about Jones too. His face was messed up, but I can't decide if it's still because this Jones still comes to use the teleportation devise and pressurized chamber to get out of 'Prison', or if he is shapeshifter suffering from the skin disease??

On one hand I like the second proposal better...it would link parallel with Newton since his creation relied on using the real Newton (brilliant scientist like Jones) to life again by using his cryo preserved head/brain as his own. --And then carry on the Shapeshifter wanting to be more human story line...while also harboring the terrorism-fringe event aspect of ZFT...which it could still play out that way even if he wasn't a shapeshifter O.o

But this once again also reminds me of Nina Sharp...I used the repeated action of Olivia (Nina and William Bell-MD/twin towers floor 15) and Nina (Jones) being abducted in elevators to link them together on "the relativity of Nina Sharp" thread...in "LSD" this idea also repeats, as Nina gets pushed down the elevator shaft, because she proves untrust worthy in Olivia's mind---but this again may relate to this time line and Mr. X...

Note: Elevators where also much present in "Wallflower" with U-Gene wanting to "be seen" ,(<--skin diseas related again) and with Olivia coming to floor 23 and has a near death experience....And I still think the MD's might lead to a bigger plot in a temporal cold war....

I am thinking Mr. X may be a shapeshifter and that is why there is a black and white logo and a lack of identity...
Last edited by DarthLocke on Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:04 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby Thirty-Fiver on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:20 pm

JacobsMom wrote:Peter has a remote?? He uses it after they cross over at the Orpheum theater. :huh:

Yea, this caught my attention too. After seeing all of the challenges of crossing over in previous seasons, they've really got it down pat now. :lol:
I believe that Broyles too is a shape shifter! :scared:

That was the impression I got too when he called the Doc.
Was Jones face all messed up or did I just think it was??

No, you're right. His face was definitely scarred up pretty badly.
Thoughts on "this" Olivia:

Is Mr. Jones possibly Mr. X or is Mr. X someone totally different from Olivia's universe?
Is the whole reason that Peter is here in these other universes the fact that he must help them in order to save all the Olivia's from their fate?

I know this most likely isn't right because Peter, Olivia and Walter all saw Mr. X in LSD and none of them recognized him, but during this episode the thought crossed my mind that Peter may be the one who needs to kill Olivia. Which would be a very difficult thing for him to do even if this isn't his Olivia. Probably not, though. :P
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby real1 on Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:56 pm

Amazing episode ,

Let's start :

We have to understand that Peter is from another timeline , and what we are seeing is another timeline another possibility of what may happen if both Peters died . which is mean it's like the possible future which we already seen in "the day we died" .

Ok , Peter is trying to find someone to help him fix this and get him back to his real time , cuz he is in a fake time .. as how i see it .. nothing is truth only Peter and us the fans !! :cheeky:

So no one was knowing Peter only his mother , from the eyes ... here i will stop a little ... am all for " he looked in to her eyes and he knew she wasn't her " and " I looked in to your eyes you are not her " , and Altelizabeth " i can see it in your eyes Peter" ... my point : if this is another possibility of time .. but for the same characters or for another version for the characters ????? ... cuz how it seems its another version for the characters and in this case how possibly Altelizabeth could know Peter from his eyes if he is not for her from this new time line ??

in that case ... how Peter did figure AltOlivia in LSD ??? , but over all I loved the scenes between Peter and Altelizabeth , and I liked Walternate !! :whistle:

September : I have seen all the possible future Olivia , you have to die . :scared: :scared: But it's logic !! how ?

They fixed Olivia's age by 46 years old , and that's what Peter did see , so he made another choice to prevent her death , but in the original time line : Charli , Jone , Bell , David , Nina and Walter all were saying to Olivia you are gonna be alright ... which mean the best time line for Olivia to live is the original time line which Peter would like to go back ... those writers are very smarts :thumbsup:

9.8/10

:cool:
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:02 pm

real1 wrote:Amazing episode ,

Let's start :

We have to understand that Peter is from another timeline , and what we are seeing is another timeline another possibility of what may happen if both Peters died . which is mean it's like the possible future which we already seen in "the day we died" .

Ok , Peter is trying to find someone to help him fix this and get him back to his real time , cuz he is in a fake time .. as how i see it .. nothing is truth only Peter and us the fans !! :cheeky:

So no one was knowing Peter only his mother , from the eyes ... here i will stop a little ... am all for " he looked in to her eyes and he knew she wasn't her " and " I looked in to your eyes you are not her " , and Altelizabeth " i can see it in your eyes Peter" ... my point : if this is another possibility of time .. but for the same characters or for another version for the characters ????? ... cuz how it seems its another version for the characters and in this case how possibly Altelizabeth could know Peter from his eyes if he is not for her from this new time line ??

in that case ... how Peter did figure AltOlivia in LSD ??? , but over all I loved the scenes between Peter and Altelizabeth , and I liked Walternate !! :whistle:

September : I have seen all the possible future Olivia , you have to die . :scared: :scared: But it's logic !! how ?

They fixed Olivia's age by 46 years old , and that's what Peter did see , so he made another choice to prevent her death , but in the original time line : Charli , Jone , Bell , David , Nina and Walter all were saying to Olivia you are gonna be alright ... which mean the best time line for Olivia to live is the original time line which Peter would like to go back ... those writers are very smarts :thumbsup:

9.8/10

:cool:



I disagree with you a little, real1! I don't think this time isn't real or corporeal. I think it's very real and very important that Peter helps these characters...

In "The Day We Died" Astrid said it best, "God helps those who help themselves."---and when you are dealing with multi-universes (and pairs of multi-universes :P ), It becomes more imperative that this Walternate's proposal makes sense, that he will help Peter any way he can, if Peter helps him too!

I think this is the result from Peter choosing "Balance" at the very end of season 3 --He must go 'back' to another already existing pair of time lines and help them. (reciprocity --if I can do THIS 'Here", then I can do THAT "There".)...maybe even save this other Olivia from her grave fate. This alternate Elisabeth seems to have a better relationship with this Walternate. This blue Lincoln Lee could infiltrate the others because THEIR DNA MATCHES" ---it suggests that ALL alternates in all iterations basically come from the same materials--the universes are made from the same stuff as other universes that came before. So it's not a surprise that Peter's eyes would look the same to anyone who knew any Peter...(Although Peter with Olivia takes this to a higher level now).

Peters' deaths 'here' have effected all of the characters and that seems to be what makes this iteration so SPECIAL and why Peter has a chance to change all of his relationships...so he can become a better person and deal with his own actual father better.

I think this is the only way Peter gets to go home and has an option to save his timeline(s).
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby supermodel on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:21 pm

I'm in the minoroty, I didn't love the episode the first time I watched it. Only when I rewtched it last night did I feel that it was a really good episode. But that has ben par for the course this season, I have been underwhelmed by a lot of episodes and only warmed up to them on second viewing.

I agree that Broyles is likely a shapeshifter, they gave up that detail too easily. Walternate says that his government has been infiltrated and he trusts no one, and then five minutes later we see Broyles in cahoots with Jones? Too easy, that's got to be a red herring.

I'm a but confused about this Mr. X business. Blue Olivia said that's the man who is going to kill her, but then in the season 3 finale Walternate killed her, right? So if September sees her die in every reality, is Walternate the killer in every reality?
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby DarthLocke on Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:17 am

supermodel wrote:I'm in the minoroty, I didn't love the episode the first time I watched it. Only when I rewtched it last night did I feel that it was a really good episode. But that has ben par for the course this season, I have been underwhelmed by a lot of episodes and only warmed up to them on second viewing.

I agree that Broyles is likely a shapeshifter, they gave up that detail too easily. Walternate says that his government has been infiltrated and he trusts no one, and then five minutes later we see Broyles in cahoots with Jones? Too easy, that's got to be a red herring.

I'm a but confused about this Mr. X business. Blue Olivia said that's the man who is going to kill her, but then in the season 3 finale Walternate killed her, right? So if September sees her die in every reality, is Walternate the killer in every reality?


Nobody has killed her [yet] in the finale...Peter disappears from his timeline once he chooses "balance" which results also in the Bridge being made, then he ends up in this one. (the comics and Peter's dream in this episode allude that the machine is broke and needs "fixed"') --So his pair of parallel universes still exists, either in a state of suspended animation (on pause) or have started moving on with out him. --but this episode made it abundantly clear that Peter wants to go back home to 'his people', suggesting there is "a home" to go back to and that he is in fact in another timeline. (We do not see the aftermath of Peter's disappearance. We only see where Peter goes and not those who are left behind...However, I suspect that when he tries to go home some type of convergence may occur--such as Peter reseting to the events in the beginning of "the Last Sam Weiss", and the rest of the characters don't exactly know/remember how the bridge came to be, as so far we also don't have an explanation of the same situation in this other timeline...)

(It's confusing because of how the Observers have gone about it by saying they wanted to erase him from the timeline, but I think they wanted to erase him from "time"...additionally 2026 is a vision/memory of what has already happened in other timelines---but the comic further expands it, that another Peter has preserved his memories inside the machine for our Peter to experience and tells Peter he can not choose either or universe again...so in this instance Peter only consciencely time traveled into another version of himself that had already existed in a 2026 time period, and he continues to do so even in other time periods until he consciencely time travels back to his 2011, steps out of the machine, and tries to explain he understands the machine...and then he fades out)

IMO because our Olivia is unique via cortexifan --she is connected (in feeling and memory) to others versions of her self including then 'past selves'. I believe the timeline Peter went to was a previous iteration (remember these pairs of universes have been looping together for a long time--so there are several versions of them that have already existed)

September says that he has seen the 'blue'-sided Olivia die over and over again (Olivia's death is a metaphor for the death of the universes)--That is why "LSD" holds weight 'here', because in some ways the pairs of universes have been repeating many of the same events over and over (Clearly not all since none of the Peters of these timelines make into adulthood 'here'.)...So when Peter and Walter went into Olivia's mind, they and the viewers got wind of things futuristic, because 'the past' may try to repeat itself again and again, but it also it works, because Peter goes to a past pair of [blue and red] universes where some of this has already happened. (It makes sense that he may be able to alter it with his existence, but he is fighting fate. Proof may lie in that when Peter tried to make contact, there were time lapses and 'effects happened BEFORE the cause' --This only makes sense if there was an already predetermined future in this history that Peter would be fighting against.)

You have to remember we don't know WHEN all of the timelines have ended, and that it's possible that the dates vary from timeline to timeline(ex: in our timeline the machines are turned on and made a bridge in 2011, but in the timeline Peter is now in the machines were turned on and made a bridge 3 year prior so either end of 2008 or beginning of 2009)---but there are several 2011's, 1980's, and 2026's that have already existed that are parental to our universes...the point of seeing 2026 was to see what not to again...that trying to recreate universes by time traveling back to the beginnings (first people) have yet to solve any problems...


I agree about Broyles too. As I was saying in may first post, the comic "Hard Copy" features Massive Dynamic replacing people with clones who can be spotted because they are "Odd-Eyed" like these shapeshifters ;) ---In Peter's 2026 vision in "The Day We Died", (not in the same way) Broyles lost his eye and it was replaced with an advanced technology type an eye, but still making him appear "odd-eyed"...(for shadowing).
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby supermodel on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:07 pm

Good summary DL and thanks for all the reminders. I dio remember discussing that Peter never actuallylet the machine, it was only his consciousnes that went to the future and experienced what another version of Peter will experience.

Do you think all the universes are set up in pairs? So that the machine only allows a connection between the two? Or maybe the machine could connect them to all the possible universes, they just haven't figured that out yet.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE Ep. 4.08 Disccusion

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:45 am

supermodel wrote:Good summary DL and thanks for all the reminders. I dio remember discussing that Peter never actuallylet the machine, it was only his consciousnes that went to the future and experienced what another version of Peter will experience.

Do you think all the universes are set up in pairs? So that the machine only allows a connection between the two? Or maybe the machine could connect them to all the possible universes, they just haven't figured that out yet.


That's a good question and it's hard to say! Every season we basically in some way widen the scope, so thinking that the universes, or rather pairs of universes, can be yet connected in say something like sets of fours, or if somehow their are iterations that have a 3 paralleled universes entangled into one timeline, who the heck knows :lol: --But if we get a season 5, I wouldn't put it past the showrunners and writers to keep going farther out (or should I say in?!)...I kind of hope though they play with 'time' a little more...
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