[Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:13 am

Thanks. Glad it was an alright read. :)

I like the singular title, because of a prospect of a "singularity", but I agree, the title is misleading, because I think the show will end with team effort, but I still think it's possible that Michael and/or September may still relate to Peter more directly some how (in a physical way) and thus I think Peter could also 'glimmer' his talents or purpose one last time/in a big way, since this time line exists because he was lead (forced) into using the machine via September, Bell, and Walternate.

I keep thinking about how we have all of these little winks to things LOST related, things like similar/go-hand-in-hand episode titles (not necessarily the content within them, but over all themes the titles present) like "Because You Left" and "And Those You Left Behind"...I keep thinking about the other future Peter experiences in "The Day We Died" (learn how the machines existence/origins) and then I keep thinking back to "What They Died For"....which is when we find out Desmond is Jacob's fail safe, as Desmond is the only character that can be in two places at once, his current corporeal and their co-existing ethereal flash sideways. Peter IMO has always been Desmond-esque in terms of his role. I think this is one reason why Henry Ian Cusick was cast as Etta's love interest, SIMON, in a Peter-like role. It might suggest that Peter (or his DNA) could be fundamentally important to the ending...something only he can do. -But also looking at the episode from what we have going on with Walter, Jacob explains to Kate that everyone of his candidates has potential to die, because of the mistake he made. He takes responsibility for the smoke monster/Man in Black. This would be like Walter taking responsibility for creating the Observers (Windmark could be our MIB).

WJames wrote:One more thing; Is evil Walter the actual ultimate bad guy/villain or just an obstacle on the way to defeat the Observers?


I think this is the real important question :thumbsup: and I let myself think about it for a few hours...In the cartoon (and in the episode) we see he keeps fighting himself, to stop himself, but ultimately he came to have the answer needed to continue "the plan"...In the cartoon part, it was like it didn't mater that he fought himself, because the world around him (fate) still helped him on his way and the team and his work was "squished"...In the outer reality, it's almost the same thing, because even though he is fighting with himself (Carla), trying to slow down, fearing going to the Observers and telling them his plans and turning his back on the others, the others are continuing on pursuing the plan with out him. It's like the episode is foreshadowing that it's out of his control...one way or another he has already cost them their lives, because 'observers are here'.
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
In the next episode it seems like he gets captured again




Also (for anyone to answer) did the music or electronic notes the transceiver emitted sound familiar?? I kept thinking that maybe it sounds like a toy or a electronic game from the 70's or 80's, but I can't place it. It also reminded me of the beginning"chopsticks" (obviously in a weird key, A minor did Walter say? No flats or sharps. and is used for expressing "sad affect")...

I wonder if it is the SIMON Game...the yellow and green keys... :hmm:

And then I thought about the Cab scene...besides possible foreshadowing, I wonder if the hallucination showed us who Donald was?! -Could have the cab driver been Donald??? :hmm:
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:14 pm

I hated this episode and all that hallucination crap. In a shortened season this week seemed like a complete waste of time. And I am sick to death of hearing people say "Peter, I don't want to lose you." Olivia was at it for weeks and now Walter. In fact what Walter is worried about is losing himself.

Yes, I know this show has always been about family etc. and I have always enjoyed the character relationships but I am really growing impatient. Taken individually the episodes are OK but when I consider the season as a whole it is maddeningly slow. Please everyone just shut up about your feelings for Peter and move on with the story!
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:17 pm

supermodel wrote:I hated this episode and all that hallucination crap. In a shortened season this week seemed like a complete waste of time. And I am sick to death of hearing people say "Peter, I don't want to lose you." Olivia was at it for weeks and now Walter. In fact what Walter is worried about is losing himself.

Yes, I know this show has always been about family etc. and I have always enjoyed the character relationships but I am really growing impatient. Taken individually the episodes are OK but when I consider the season as a whole it is maddeningly slow. Please everyone just shut up about your feelings for Peter and move on with the story!


I know I can't change your mind, Supermodel and you're not alone. Others felt the same way as you do. These are a couple of my responses. Maybe I can just soften the hate a little? :lol:

I don't think it's a waste of time because an acid trip and coming in and out of various "realities" is a great metaphor for both multiple universe and walking through life in a fog ("living is easy with eyes closed" Charlie Pace's/"Strawberry Fields" quote/tattoo) - They want us to remember that there were multiple universes, most likely because it relates to the ending. The episode was also important to Walter, because he is continuously confronted with the same kinds of decisions over and over...using kids as weapons to save the world and taking children (who are not yours) away from their families and homes (death and war) IMO this is very important to the ends of Walter(s)' story...because he is the one with the ideas. He might be the one who has to decide to change and accept mortality...or find another way to do it.
---------------
But this episode kind of makes a point of asking the viewer, if there should really be urgency or not? What I mean is Walter is set up with a realization of previous choices made, choices that have lead to to death and destruction over and over again. It might suggest that the Observers are not the thing to fight, but rather themselves, as their actions keep repeating in many iterations of these time lines...He might have to stop using innocent children to fight wars....I disagree, because we do not know what the point of the series is yet...the point in fact might be about the human capacity to philosophically ponder in order to NOT "jump" to conclusions that render bad decisions, because bad decisions are what lead to bad futures, and thus it is mostly about OUR CHARACTERS coming to terms, rather than just doing their duty to fight and protect others. This episodes points out Walter is trying to slow down his mental process, because he does not want to become that "man who sold the world" AGAIN.

(Technology or innovation may endues manic behavior without thought or reason = Observers/Fringe science...if only we could "slow down" and not be in such a rush or in such pain = "pacing" our selves = Charlie Pace = "Living is easy with Eyes Closed")

As J.J. Abrams had stated towards the end of last season, Fringe is about "Conscience". This is the last opportunity we have to get inside these characters' heads, get under their skins and see who they are verses who they really want to be. Identity, fate, truth, is partially about the reasons behind our actions and recognizing fault and attempting to change.

We also don't know if the series is going to end here in this time line, as this time might be rendered moot depending on what we are left with. I don't expect action packed advancement until the last two episodes.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:10 am

I guess it;s no surprise, I hate Brown Betty too, and the animated episode. But that was a great post Darth, it diluted my hate a bit!

I was so busy being irritated that I hadn't reflected on the episode or watched it again (I usually watch twice before I comment) and therefore I hadn't noticed how taking Michael from his adopted family is the same pattern that has worked out so badly in the past. I am such a dummy, thanks for pointing it out!
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:04 pm

supermodel wrote:I hated this episode and all that hallucination crap. In a shortened season this week seemed like a complete waste of time. And I am sick to death of hearing people say "Peter, I don't want to lose you." Olivia was at it for weeks and now Walter. In fact what Walter is worried about is losing himself.

Yes, I know this show has always been about family etc. and I have always enjoyed the character relationships but I am really growing impatient. Taken individually the episodes are OK but when I consider the season as a whole it is maddeningly slow. Please everyone just shut up about your feelings for Peter and move on with the story!


I am very sorry, but you are completely wrong. First of all, this episode moved the plot immensely because they found the Observer boy who will be crucial to defeating the Observers, a big piece of the puzzle. So it was not just an "emotional, family, filler" episode. By no means! They couldn't just find the boy in first 5 minutes and say: That's it, lets go destroy the Observers and then do it!? O.o Introspection of feelings that are inside of them was always, ALWAYS the biggest part of this show as you said. There wouldn't be a show without it.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:24 pm

DarthLocke wrote:
I like the singular title, because of a prospect of a "singularity", but I agree, the title is misleading, because I think the show will end with team effort, but I still think it's possible that Michael and/or September may still relate to Peter more directly some how (in a physical way) and thus I think Peter could also 'glimmer' his talents or purpose one last time/in a big way, since this time line exists because he was lead (forced) into using the machine via September, Bell, and Walternate.
Could happen, I agree.


DarthLocke wrote:
I think this is the real important question :thumbsup: and I let myself think about it for a few hours...In the cartoon (and in the episode) we see he keeps fighting himself, to stop himself, but ultimately he came to have the answer needed to continue "the plan"...In the cartoon part, it was like it didn't mater that he fought himself, because the world around him (fate) still helped him on his way and the team and his work was "squished"...In the outer reality, it's almost the same thing, because even though he is fighting with himself (Carla), trying to slow down, fearing going to the Observers and telling them his plans and turning his back on the others, the others are continuing on pursuing the plan with out him. It's like the episode is foreshadowing that it's out of his control...one way or another he has already cost them their lives, because 'observers are here'.
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
In the next episode it seems like he gets captured again


Nice analysis about Walter.
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
But I hope it's not him.




DarthLocke wrote:Also (for anyone to answer) did the music or electronic notes the transceiver emitted sound familiar?? I kept thinking that maybe it sounds like a toy or a electronic game from the 70's or 80's, but I can't place it. It also reminded me of the beginning"chopsticks" (obviously in a weird key, A minor did Walter say? No flats or sharps. and is used for expressing "sad affect")...

I wonder if it is the SIMON Game...the yellow and green keys... :hmm:

And then I thought about the Cab scene...besides possible foreshadowing, I wonder if the hallucination showed us who Donald was?! -Could have the cab driver been Donald??? :hmm:


Sorry, but I'm tone deaf. :blush: I think we will be surprised about the real Donald's identity and I don't think it was the cab driver, but if it is, it's a clever way of introducing him.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:36 pm

supermodel wrote:I guess it;s no surprise, I hate Brown Betty too, and the animated episode. But that was a great post Darth, it diluted my hate a bit!

I was so busy being irritated that I hadn't reflected on the episode or watched it again (I usually watch twice before I comment) and therefore I hadn't noticed how taking Michael from his adopted family is the same pattern that has worked out so badly in the past. I am such a dummy, thanks for pointing it out!


I think it was rather suttly (<--is that a word??) done. I wouldn't have thought of it either, if I wasn't thinking about Wizard of Oz and people and their homes and thinking about "Through the Looking Glass and What Walter Found There" (<---it's like a pun for him seeing the other side, when he decides to go and try and save the other Peter...which is allegedly where he/blue Walters sold the world--although I think most of us realize that a good chunk of it was also September's fault) and the David Bowie songs and stuff. It took me arguing it out to really think about it in relation to the rest of the series.

I think there could be an argument that in some ways these are different circumstances, as you said, Michael is already adopted (so where did Walter and Donald find him/take him from?) and then we have this sort of strange set up or conundrum where the Observers are children of humanity, despite some evolutionary differences, and yet they're using "us" in a horrific way, and now we're going to use a child version of one of them, against them...It's kind of nihilistic.

But I do think there's a point here with very similar history still repeating itself. -And the Donald reference I think is meant to make us think back to "August" and it's love story...and an Observers capacity to sacrifice himself for one he loves to have a future...


WJames wrote:
Sorry, but I'm tone deaf. :blush: I think we will be surprised about the real Donald's identity and I don't think it was the cab driver, but if it is, it's a clever way of introducing him.


Ya, I was just thinking that a random cab driver, who actually speaks to you and "takes your money" (Donald is also the name of the hit man that the Observers once used to help "course correct" or "reset trajectory"), is a really strange thing to hallucinate, unless it might have been someone important...or maybe not :lol:

But a strange coincidence is that DONovan ("Hurdy Gurdy Man") was playing during the beginning of the lab to cab sequence...

Note: In Lost, Donovan is also the name of Desmond's friend who was a physicist. (And the song "Atlantis" goes with the theme of a mythological Island. In "Peter and the Machine Pt. 2", Peter also visits a Celtic mythological Island, Hy-Brasil at an undisclosed date. (The singer Donovan is Scottish )

Also at the end of the first season 5 episode when Walter looses his memory via Observers, he wanders out into the street only to find CD's just hanging in the street and a cab with a CD player that begins to help him remember (there's also the yellow dandelion which, like a cab may be significant to the purpose of hope in the amber time line)...(red) Henry Higgins is also an important cab driver as he helps both Olivias in a time of crisis during the course of season 3.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:10 am

DarthLocke said:
I think there could be an argument that in some ways these are different circumstances, as you said, Michael is already adopted (so where did Walter and Donald find him/take him from?) and then we have this sort of strange set up or conundrum where the Observers are children of humanity, despite some evolutionary differences, and yet they're using "us" in a horrific way, and now we're going to use a child version of one of them, against them...It's kind of nihilistic.


This got me thinking, where do you think Michael came from? That is, do you think he was born or was he created?

I am working out a theory, it is not well developed, I am sort of thinking out loud here:

We have already speculated that there are probably lady Observers somewhere and they can procreate. But we also saw that the implant affected Peter almost immediately and that it had physical effects, he was losing his hair.

So I think it stands to reason that it is the implant that does it, not genetics. Maybe the Observers are born normal humans, maybe not even all future humans are baldies, maybe the ones we see are just the soldiers or advance team or whatever and the people in 2600 mostly look like us.

So if that is the case, do you think someone put an implant in a child? It's barbaric and yet it is a Walter-ish thing to do, after all he injected all those kids with cortexiphan.

WJames said:
I am very sorry, but you are completely wrong.

Seriously? There is no right or wrong, I just didn't like it. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means we don't agree.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:07 pm

supermodel wrote:
This got me thinking, where do you think Michael came from? That is, do you think he was born or was he created?

I am working out a theory, it is not well developed, I am sort of thinking out loud here:

We have already speculated that there are probably lady Observers somewhere and they can procreate. But we also saw that the implant affected Peter almost immediately and that it had physical effects, he was losing his hair.

So I think it stands to reason that it is the implant that does it, not genetics. Maybe the Observers are born normal humans, maybe not even all future humans are baldies, maybe the ones we see are just the soldiers or advance team or whatever and the people in 2600 mostly look like us.

So if that is the case, do you think someone put an implant in a child? It's barbaric and yet it is a Walter-ish thing to do, after all he injected all those kids with cortexiphan.


I'm so torn on it. I personally would like it if there were female Observers and the idea that they're just all hidden away somewhere, but at the same time I can't help to think back to some of those of those first episodes like "The Same Old Story" where we learned Kelvin Genetics had been trying to growth accelerate babies into "soldiers" (which we would presume to be male due to both the time period/culture-sexism/morality...) But then we have Penrose's son and the Candyman who needed to steal something from others to stay alive (themes of stealing youth)...It made me wonder if Observers could age backwards?

But I think the idea that Observers where actually once men and they were "turned" by tech is a really interesting idea and is an unique way to tie them back to the shapeshifters! :thumbsup: -Maybe child Observers are hybrids between human women and male Observers???? :hmm:

But there are SO many insistences of Walter and Walternate (and others relating to their work) doing these repeated acts, that your guess seems spot on! :)
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:58 pm

Seriously? There is no right or wrong, I just didn't like it. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means we don't agree.

Yes, seriously. You can't say that the episode didn't move the plot forward when something as crucial as finding the Observer boy happens in it. So you ARE WRONG in that regard. You can dislike the episode as much as you want, but that was not what I was referring to in my post.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby supermodel on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:44 pm

I do not think the plot moved forward significantly. The found the kid, big deal, it's an incremental gain. They are in exactly the same boat they were in before they found him: they still have no idea what the plan is or why the kid is significant or what to do next.

Every week the tapes lead them to another useless item they have no idea what to do with. A bunch of rocks from the mine, a giant magnet, some blueprints, a kid. It's maddening! And I do think it's all useless junk. I'm betting that in the end the items are meaningless and the big "plan" is all about the learning experiences along the way. The things they learned about the Observers and this new society are the true elements of the plan, the ammunition they need to fight with. They don't need that kid, they needed to learn about pocket universes and Walter needs to learn to stop abusing children.

That's Walter's big realization and master plan: he realized they all needed to change and learn, and that's why he's so afraid of becoming the old, mean Walter. That guy doesn't learn from his mistakes, he is too filled with hubris and apparently hubris won't win the war, it's the Observers' biggest fault and the reason why time and again they underestimate humans.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:02 am

supermodel wrote:I do not think the plot moved forward significantly. The found the kid, big deal, it's an incremental gain. They are in exactly the same boat they were in before they found him: they still have no idea what the plan is or why the kid is significant or what to do next.

Every week the tapes lead them to another useless item they have no idea what to do with. A bunch of rocks from the mine, a giant magnet, some blueprints, a kid. It's maddening! And I do think it's all useless junk. I'm betting that in the end the items are meaningless and the big "plan" is all about the learning experiences along the way. The things they learned about the Observers and this new society are the true elements of the plan, the ammunition they need to fight with. They don't need that kid, they needed to learn about pocket universes and Walter needs to learn to stop abusing children.

That's Walter's big realization and master plan: he realized they all needed to change and learn, and that's why he's so afraid of becoming the old, mean Walter. That guy doesn't learn from his mistakes, he is too filled with hubris and apparently hubris won't win the war, it's the Observers' biggest fault and the reason why time and again they underestimate humans.


Although I am hoping we get insight to what they were going to do, I'm willing to bet you're right, because it's the exact same things that I also notice, and generally the whole it's "all about the learning experiences along the way" is how I felt about the Amber time line in general, because the quantum mechanics changed and/or became very slap bang with out many detailed explanations unlike the first 3 seasons, which is why I kept thinking it had/has to be a machine-made-collective-ethereal-death-plane in which is rendering the weight of Peter's choice...

I love the episode, because I usually like surreal episodes of most TV shows in general, as it's way to get inside the characters' heads and expose mythical/hidden truths about the reality, which the whole season kind of embodies IMO. -But in terms of it being very action packed or physically progressive, I would agree that it is holding itself back from whatever those last couple of episodes are going to be. I think that's when we'll see 'the meat'. But I think we have been lingering in conscience more than the physical in terms of the actual plot.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:04 pm

supermodel wrote:I do not think the plot moved forward significantly. The found the kid, big deal


Yes it was a big deal. But we disagree and that's fine. For me 4 episodes before this one actually did nothing in terms of moving the plot forward. Peter becoming an Observer actually went nowhere and was just a cool thing they did for a while. Yes, Peter grew as a person and with the help of love managed to let go of his self destructive ways but it did nothing for the overall plot. We could have seen how Observers act and think through some other means.
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby DarthLocke on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:05 pm

WJames wrote:
supermodel wrote:I do not think the plot moved forward significantly. The found the kid, big deal


Yes it was a big deal. But we disagree and that's fine. For me 4 episodes before this one actually did nothing in terms of moving the plot forward. Peter becoming an Observer actually went nowhere and was just a cool thing they did for a while. Yes, Peter grew as a person and with the help of love managed to let go of his self destructive ways but it did nothing for the overall plot. We could have seen how Observers act and think through some other means.


I for one was surprised to learn in any capacity that we would ever see the child Observer of the amber time line, in the amber time line, before the series ended. -As for Donald, I'm starting to think that he is the enigma we may never meet, all though my friend and fellow forum member, Rick has great theory that Donald may be September with his "tech" removed, or Canaan, the helpful shapeshifter...

I think the plot with Peter becoming an Observer, they way it suddenly dropped is very similar to when he was pursuing both the shapeshifter tech back in season 3 and how he was pursuing a way home by creating interface tech with the machine during the middle of season 4...
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Re: [Official] FRINGE - S5 -Discussion Thread

Postby WJames on Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:53 pm

DarthLocke wrote:
WJames wrote:
supermodel wrote:I do not think the plot moved forward significantly. The found the kid, big deal


Yes it was a big deal. But we disagree and that's fine. For me 4 episodes before this one actually did nothing in terms of moving the plot forward. Peter becoming an Observer actually went nowhere and was just a cool thing they did for a while. Yes, Peter grew as a person and with the help of love managed to let go of his self destructive ways but it did nothing for the overall plot. We could have seen how Observers act and think through some other means.


I for one was surprised to learn in any capacity that we would ever see the child Observer of the amber time line, in the amber time line, before the series ended. -As for Donald, I'm starting to think that he is the enigma we may never meet, all though my friend and fellow forum member, Rick has great theory that Donald may be September with his "tech" removed, or Canaan, the helpful shapeshifter...

I think the plot with Peter becoming an Observer, they way it suddenly dropped is very similar to when he was pursuing both the shapeshifter tech back in season 3 and how he was pursuing a way home by creating interface tech with the machine during the middle of season 4...


I like Rick's theory very, very much! Donald is obviously someone important, a person who has the knowledge to defeat the Observers! So it would make sense that it is someone who worked close with them and knows their power structure back or rather forward in 27'th century. It makes even more sense if it is September himself who has adopted civilian identity! Brilliant! That would be a true WTF moment! September is the one who coined the plan to defeat the baldies so it actually makes sense!

As for the Observer child... well, I always felt that it was one thing, one loose thread, that Fringe didn't fully close and address. I remember thinking even way back that he would end being up September. Though, not now, this Donald=September theory is too good. But the boy will probably be The One, An Enemy Of Fate. Maybe September/Donald is his father? :P

Finally, about Peter becoming an Observer issue. Yes, you are completely right. They re-threaded familiar ground with him and ended it exactly the same way as before. But maybe it was for the better. We'll know after the finale. Beside, he has to remain on the Light side of the force if he is to be Luke to Walter's Vader in the end. ;)
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