Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Spoiler discussion for 'LOST'

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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby julietislost55 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:15 am

When I saw the young Ben meeting Richard...and Richard looked surprised when Ben said his mother didn't die on the island....and Richard said he could join them, but had to be patient, I kept wondering why....

So, if Richard had to teach Ben things about the island, Jacob, etc...
And the manifestation of Ben's mother was from Jacob or the island, did that tell Richard that he was a leader for the others?????

And then Ben had to teach Richard and the others about Dharma, Science, etc...and they had to wait years and years [why?] for the right time to purge Dharma from the island, and for Ben to take his rightful place?

Only to find out later that Richard had been off the island, present at Locke's birth, again with Locke- testing him...

So, what exactly IS going on???
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby T.L.A. on Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:01 am

julietislost55 wrote:So, what exactly IS going on???


Great question :D

At times, I can't help wondering how much simpler it would be if Alpert could talk to Jacob himself. Too simple maybe. But at least it tells us that communion with Jacob dosen't rely on faith alone, because Richard hardly lacks that. I guess he just dosen't have that 'x' factor. That, or the big J is giving him the cold shoulder.

The role that Ben (and presumably now Locke) fulfills seems to be for the most part an intermediary or messenger between Jacob and the others. With that in mind, it's no wonder Alpert is so 'eager' to have someone in place. I wonder who that person was before Ben took up the reins? Richard might seem a good candidate but I get the impression he groomed Ben for the role and that dosen't seem so likely if he was the one being replaced.

Was that previous incumbent 'banished' ala Ben for deviating from the island's manifesto? Or was there just a whole lot of waiting going on while reincarnation took it's sweet time..
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:30 am

This time, the question gets on the surface: Does Richard have any kind of communication with Jacob? Have they ever met? Are they working in relation with each other? Are their purposes the same?

I haven't seen that Richard is a leader-kind of person, because he didn't do anything much, rather than getting Ben on his side. But his more than a person to bring people onto the island. Maybe he knows the fate of some people, maybe this is his communication with Jacob; he talks to him to get a name, and Jacob tells him xyz needs to come to the island, and Richard FINDS them and reminds them, i.e. John, that they need to go to the island.

Does Abaddon work as the same as Richard? Richard reminds people about the island, does Abaddon do the same thing? Is this some kind of an Egyptian tradition? Are there any Egyptian traditions like that? Or Egyptians only created and signed the island with a Four-Toed-Statue?
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby julietislost55 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:05 pm

T.L.A. wrote:
julietislost55 wrote:So, what exactly IS going on???


Great question :D

At times, I can't help wondering how much simpler it would be if Alpert could talk to Jacob himself. Too simple maybe. But at least it tells us that communion with Jacob dosen't rely on faith alone, because Richard hardly lacks that. I guess he just dosen't have that 'x' factor. That, or the big J is giving him the cold shoulder.

The role that Ben (and presumably now Locke) fulfills seems to be for the most part an intermediary or messenger between Jacob and the others. With that in mind, it's no wonder Alpert is so 'eager' to have someone in place. I wonder who that person was before Ben took up the reins? Richard might seem a good candidate but I get the impression he groomed Ben for the role and that dosen't seem so likely if he was the one being replaced.

Was that previous incumbent 'banished' ala Ben for deviating from the island's manifesto? Or was there just a whole lot of waiting going on while reincarnation took it's sweet time..


Exactly!
What I was thinking at the time, was that Richard was relieved to meet Ben, that they needed a leader [or liaison to Jacob]....
So, now I wonder [if ppl speculating that Widmore was once on the island, and perhaps moved the island and couldn't return], whether Widmore could have been a previous leader/Jacob contact...
Certainly Richard's disheveled looks [long hair/old clothes] made him look lost or searching...the look on his face with Ben was like relief/astonishment....like he did not "expect" Ben to see manifestations of Jacob???
If Richard was waiting for Locke [or the next designee?], then Ben suddenly "fit" the role...and the others did not have a leader/contact to Jacob...then wouldn't Richard take advantage of this and train Ben?
Richard's "role" with Jacob/the others is obscure....my thought was that he was somehow Jacob's second in command [if/when Jacob was alive and the leader?] and whenever there is a "vacancy", he becomes a pseudo-leader of the others, but without the Jacob-communication piece that they so need.
The question always remains though: WHO or what is Jacob????? Was Jacob an "ancient being"? A crew member on the Black Rock? WHAT????
One can surmise that if Jacob, Richard, [perhaps Widmore?] were either ancients OR BR survivors, and Jacob as the leader died, and communication with the island's "soul" was previously through Jacob...then they would need a new liaison...
If immortality is also a factor on the island, or extended life, then we really don't know just how old Richard is, or Widmore's role, etc.

What we do know, [or surmise] is that Ben was born off the island, his mother died, his father blamed him for his mother's death and hated Ben... Ben found a home on the island and being of high intellect, took this opportunity to learn many things [science, medicine, finance, travel, island] and stayed "in power" until Locke's arrival.
Ben obviously is mentally strange, due to his childhood, [and perhaps losing Annie, if she died in pregnancy, as some ppl presume], causing his obsession with fertility, resulting in him bringing Juliet to the island.
Obviously, Ben thought he was orchestrating the others, the island, and things have changed...

That Ben developed a spinal tumor may have been very significant, since the island appears to "heal" cancer, not cause it[?], unless Jacob/the island can actually cause cancer, and did this to 'de-throne' Ben once Locke was fated to arrive on the island.
If everything was pre-determined that Locke would arrive, then I don't understand why Richard, who was at Locke's birth and also tested him wouldn't have just brought him to the island then? [unless he wasn't ready or something]
I am surprised that Locke has no memory of meeting Richard, when he was a kid in the house, the test and all...most kids would recall something so strange/significant, I think.

Unfortunately, since Ben has sort-of been "dethroned" as leader, while still on the island, and while alive...and eventually moves the island [showing regret and sorrow for having to leave...], I wonder if Ben was guilty of manipulating things...? We saw him tell the others what Jacob wanted...but if he was the only one who could communicate with Jacob [prior to Locke], then couldn't Ben have told the others anything he wanted?????
We heard Richard tell Locke [when he gave the file on Sawyer to Locke], that Ben had led the others away from their goal or purpose...so perhaps Richard and the others realized that Ben was manipulative, and sought Locke, once he appeared on the island...

As usual, we speculate, without enuf information to really know anything...
But I still like to theorize!
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:32 pm

Richard couldn't actually took John to the island, because I think there are some procedures to be brought to the island or to be left from the island. Richard made his move by visiting John at his childhood and let him choose some specific stuff, like knives or comic book. These are all effected John's life, as he became a hunter, became interested about knives.

What is the relation between Jacob-Richard-Abaddon? Also Abaddon is another guy who never gets old? Because his appearance in 4x11 "Cabin Fever" is the same as his appearance in 4x01 "Beginning of the End".
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby T.L.A. on Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:55 pm

julietislost55 wrote:What I was thinking at the time, was that Richard was relieved to meet Ben, that they needed a leader [or liaison to Jacob]....


Richard's interest seemed to peak after Ben said his mother was dead. Before that he was almost jovial. A transcript dosen't really do it justice, but Alpert (if it were possible) became even more intense. As if there was some massive significance attached to the fact that Ben had seen a dead person. At times like that, I wonder what the instructions in the script were. And if Nestor Carbonell was instructed to become immensely serious at that point, then it's very telling.

Ben: She's dead.
Richard: Did she die here, on the Island?
Ben: No. When I was a baby.
Richard: Did you see her, out here, Ben, in the jungle?
Ben: She talked to me.
Richard: What did she say?
Ben: That I couldn't come with her. She said it wasn't time yet.

I think Ben's mother was an apparition created by Jacob/The island. And the fact Alpert was so interested in what it had to say, again makes me think that Alpert/The Hostiles had lost contact with the island themselves and they were worried about it. It may even be possible that 'Jacob' didn't exist as we know him at that point. Horace mightn't have built the cabin yet. So Jacob could have been residing somewhere else or appearing randomly ala Ben's mother. I'm presuming Alpert took "She said it wasn't time yet" as a sign that Ben should be groomed for the role he eventually took up.

There's an interesting point of interest on Alpets's Lostpedia page that describes his relationship with Ben:

Richard Alpert is described as someone who is not interested in leading the Others but is very influential in finding and selecting a leader. In the commentary for "The Man from Tallahassee", he is described as being similar to a Panchen Lama choosing the next Dalai Lama. He and Ben keep each other in "check" by having the power to pick/veto each other's replacement on the Island. Ben's role would be to pick the next Panchen, should the need arise. This keeps the two in a sort of balanced power relationship. They are allies, yet they have some measure of control over the other should one get out of hand.


julietislost55 wrote:That Ben developed a spinal tumor may have been very significant, since the island appears to "heal" cancer, not cause it[?], unless Jacob/the island can actually cause cancer, and did this to 'de-throne' Ben once Locke was fated to arrive on the island.


I believe that's exactly what happened. Jacob/The island caused Ben's illness as a punishment for 'containing' him with the ash and following his own agenda. Ben himself even admits as much when reluctantly handing the reins to Locke:

The island wanted me to get sick and it wanted you to get well. My time is over, John. It's yours now.

I've noticed that Ben uses the words 'Jacob' and 'The island' in an interchangeable manner. This may or may not mean that they are one and the same but I suspect they are.

julietislost55 wrote:We heard Richard tell Locke [when he gave the file on Sawyer to Locke], that Ben had led the others away from their goal or purpose...so perhaps Richard and the others realized that Ben was manipulative, and sought Locke, once he appeared on the island..


Richard: Ben has been wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems. We're looking for someone to remind us that we're here for more important reasons.

It really makes you wonder what those 'more important reasons' are dosen't it? And at what point Alpert realized that Locke was the kid he'd given that test to nearly a half century earlier.

Kid_A wrote:Richard couldn't actually took John to the island, because I think there are some procedures to be brought to the island or to be left from the island. Richard made his move by visiting John at his childhood and let him choose some specific stuff, like knives or comic book. These are all effected John's life, as he became a hunter, became interested about knives.


But did the order of events really happen like that..or the other way around? If Alpert really can 'time travel' (and it's a big if) then he may have learned about Locke's island miracle and only then ventured into his past to administer the test. In that scenario, Abaddon becomes highly significant, being solely responsible for setting Locke on a course to the island where he comes to Richard's attention. I'm willing to bet Alpert and Abaddon are acquainted, either as friends and/or foes. Maybe even sharing a Ben/Widmore dynamic. If Ben succeeded Widmore, then perhaps Alpert replaced Abaddon? If true (and it's wild speculation on my part) then Locke finds himself in the middle of it all. And what he 'owes' Abaddon could well involve Richard in some way. Widmore & Abaddon vs. Ben & Alpert. With Locke thrown into the midst.
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:12 pm

We can't give a possible, accurate answer for what's Locke's main fate/purpose for the island, which I hope will be digged up to the surface in season 5. Also who the real Others are and Richard, and what their identity and what is their purpose is really important.

Ben and Locke are the guys that have already lost their characteristics at the outside of the island. If Ben were to be raised outside the island, he would be similar, very similar to Locke, who was working in a box company. They found themselves on the island, and someway they want to use this power. I mean if you don't have any special feature than your friends, but only a one skill, and you and your friends are landed to a place where you can use your only skill and it is helpful, then you begin to realize yourself. I could have never thought that in 4x04 Locke would place a handbomb in Miles' mouth and say "I'm the guard of the island, and I want peace in here" - that's kind of stuff which Ben would do!

So Locke has a "mission" now, as we found out in the season 4 finale, and if he fails to do that, if he gives primary importance on something else than the island, he will face great circumstances, great and bad. Maybe the Egyptian things or not. I wanna see Locke running away from the Egyptian people that chase him. :rofl:

Maybe Richard is an Egyptian too! We don't know it yet, but his outlook gives me the sense of it. Maybe he had another Others and Dharma-kind of group while he was living with the Egyptians on the island, then he had a contact with the island which gained life and had its own wills, and he purged his own Dharma-kind of group, then he lost contact and found Ben! Then Ben found Locke (of course Richard and Abaddon influences are still accepted).
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby T.L.A. on Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:22 pm

The spoilers about Locke and Richard being chased by (possibly) some Egyptians just blew any preconceptions I had about season 5 right out of the water. I thought the hieroglyphs were going to be one of those things that never got addressed. Real bottom of the list type stuff. Although Darlton did promise (warn?) that things were going to get even crazier/stranger.

I've joked before about Richard being an Egyptian :lol: The eyes have it ;)

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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:29 pm

Yeah, the same on me. :) Richard has that sliding eyes that make me think of he is a member of an ancient group or tribal. The craziest thing in the show would be that audience encounters with something that is off the mind or edge of reason.
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby julietislost55 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:00 pm

On the issue of the Hostiles/Others...
Since, at the time of the purge, we are shown only Richard up-close, besides Ben...[I have watched the purge scenes in slow-motion, trying to recognize any others as we have seen them, and I can see that at least was female, but no one was close enough to recognize] This leads me to believe that the writers either dealt with the others like "red shirts" [unimportant], or wanted to obscure the others so that we couldn't identify them.

Just realize that of those we saw at the time of Walt's kidnapping [Mrs Klugh, Tom, Pickett etc] there were a lot of them! So, how many are "original others" if there is such a thing...

Speculate that if ppl have been on the island since "ancient" times, ie 4 toed statue/temple, hieroglyphs...then how many existed then? Did some of them die or leave? Did BlackRock survivors eventually join the original others, and if so, who and how many of them?

Add to this question: When Ben and Richard met, how many years passed prior the purge?
In learning about the island, in teaching Richard about Dharma, did anyone besides Ben "defect" from Dharma???

In summary, are the others made up of a varied group of ppl, some original, some added over the years?
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:38 pm

Do I see a mummy kind of a thing at the painting on Mr. Widmore's office in 3x08 "Flashes Before Your Eyes"? Which is within a polar bear and the reversed-word "Namaste" written on the painting?

BTW, how can I put a .jpg uploaded image on here?
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby julietislost55 on Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:44 am

You can put a link to a photo using the Img tag, and placing a url of pic within it, either from the web, or photo bucket etc.
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:03 pm

I tried to post an image shack linked photo by using img tags, but forum doesn't accept that.
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby T.L.A. on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:56 pm

The image might have been too large Kid_A. Maximum size is 500 x 500. Also, when using imageshack, use the 'direct' link, I think it's the one furthest down the page after uploading your image. Place that between the img tags, make sure it's within size limitations and you should be fine :)
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Re: Ben's Secret Door Explanation...

Postby Kid_A on Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:55 pm

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The upside down man image at the right of the polar bear. It's kinda like a pharaoh, or as I said, a mummy.
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