A Supernatural Characters’ Study

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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby CLDeangrl on Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:43 pm

Nope, can't agree there. He never really looked at her the way he does most women. He did when he first met her but he was still stinging from the loss of Dad so his heart wasn't in it and by the time he'd gotten over that, he'd started looking at her differently. I don't think the physical attraction was ever really the same with Jo as it was with other women. It might have gotten than way over time if they'd had the chance but, as Dean put it when they first met, with them it always seemed to be a matter of "wrong time, wrong place".
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby Bec666 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:27 pm

Spoken like a true Dean girl. All I'm saying is he did NOT think of her as a sister.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby trackerem on Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:17 am

thanks for your thoughts aaronia!! :)
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby Aaronia on Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:02 pm

Hi, I’m glad to read all the different positions in the comments. Thanks, trackerem and Bec666, for your inputs and appreciation.

I also have to thank CLDeangrl for reminding me of Jo’s feelings for her father and how she wanted to honor his memory and continue his legacy. It is a really relevant point, because this Harvelle father-daughter relation parallels Dean’s relation with his father. This similarity made Jo and Dean share for a moment a real emotional connection, which could have developed into a romantic or brother-sister one if they had been given more time.

------------------

And thus we come to the core of the Supernatural characters' analysis (sorry for the unusual length):


LOVE/FAMILY VS. THE FORCES FROM HELL


The Winchesters have indeed experienced big losses in their lives: their mom, their dad, their dad’s friends... so that they have learned the hard way that it is really dangerous for other people to hang around them; a message that has especially left Sam scarred for life: his girlfriend Jessica (4 episodes) was killed (with Brady’s help) by the murderous demon (Azazel) who had killed his mother, and exactly in the same way. This demon was also responsible for John’s death and ultimately for Sam’s (first death) what led to Dean’s (death by the crossroads deal), making him the quintessential destroyer of the Winchester family (as the related demon Meg was the main destroyer of their friends). It was later also revealed that he had also murdered their maternal grandma and grandpa, having killed John once before too (although he brought him back to life a few minutes later), all of this as key steps of his developing ‘end game’.

Azazel a.k.a. the Yellow Eyed Demon (7 episodes), is one of the worst enemies the Winchesters ever had to face, being responsible for the whole design that put them into the hunting business to begin with and eventually led them into bringing the Apocalypse upon Earth. For his end game (to facilitate the arrival of Lucifer) he needed to influence some special kids at the age of 6 months, needing to ask one of their parents for permission (10 years in advance) for the future intervention in their household. Actually, it seems that Dean’s time trip to the main year of Azazel’s preparations (1973) helped attract his attention towards the brave and feisty Mary Campbell as the future mother of who would become his favourite special kid, what at that very moment sealed the family’s fate. (It’s good that Dean also took the precaution to make sure his daddy bought the most important car in Earth’s history –according to Chuck–, because only with the aid of the beautiful Impala would they finally be able to ruin Azazel’s and Lucifer’s plans and save humanity and the Earth).

The weapon the Winchesters used against Azazel was a really special Colt, the only gun capable to put a demon out of existence. Dean was eventually able to kill this awful enemy, avenging his parents’ and Jessica’s death, after retrieving the Colt from the Devil’s Gate (where it had been used as a key to open the Gate of Hell for a brief time). But not before he happened to make his own deal with the Crossroads Demon in order to revive his brother Sam (who had just been killed by Jake, another one of Azazel’s special kids) in exchange for his own life and soul (to be delivered in one year). The Yellow Eyed Demon finally died but only after putting everything in place for the breaking of the 66 seals which would eventually free Lucifer from his cage: Dean would be taken to Hell in 12 months (on time for the first seal to be broken, now that John had escaped Hell through the opened Gate) and a lot of demons (including the next key players in his plan, Ruby and Lilith) had just broken loose on Earth.

After Azazel’s death, Lilith (5 episodes) took charge as the main adversary of the Winchester brothers. She was the first human to ever become a demon (at Lucifer’s hands) and the most powerful demon on Earth after the event at Devil’s Gate. The oldest of creatures (although manifesting often as a young girl), Lilith was the one holding Dean’s contract (to go to hell at an approaching date) and definitely unwilling to let him escape that fate and the one devoted afterwards to breaking the remaining seals, in order to bring her ‘father’ Lucifer back, having also a special fate to fulfil with Sam, with the aid of her secret assistant, the deceitful Ruby. (The demon Ruby is with her 18 episodes the fifth character on the show per frequency of appearances and the first one in the female category, although if we break her role into her two ‘meatsuits’, we get 7 and 11, where brunette Ruby would tie with Lisa as the most often featured female in the show).

Sam had learned about his ‘freaky’ abilities after Jessica’s death. He was understandably afraid of his apparent ‘curse’ and frightened about what kind of monster he might finally turn into, what opened his heart to a compassionate defence of any possibly good hearted ‘monster’ he ever found in his way: as Lenore (the vampire), Madison (the werewolf) and Jack (the rugaru), who all got finally killed anyway. Besides Dean, who would always (if possible) stay at his side (even if still afraid of what he might become), he knew he could never have any other close friends, as even hunters were turning against him (Gordon, Kubrik...), and of course didn’t consider himself suitable for a stable relationship with a woman and that’s why he left Sarah behind even after getting a strong connection with her in 1.19 (although he did get some occasional ‘action’ with Madison in 2.17, Cara in 4.17 and some other women, mostly at his soulless stage). Within a couple years Sam had been forced to renounce to every kind of dream he ever had for his life (love, career, normal life and family) and just try to adjust to the idea that his best option might eventually be getting killed by his own brother (as his dad had forewarned). After meeting with the other special kids (Andy, Ava, Jake, Lily and also the ones who died before the encounter arranged by Azazel: Max and Ansem) he learns the true origin of his curse (the demon blood drops he ingested as an infant) but not exactly its main purpose (to enable him to kill Lilith when the time comes) and then finds out that his brother not only is not ready to kill him if necessary, but that he has already sold his soul (with a very short deadline) in order to bring him back to life, so that poor Sam finds himself doomed to lose this only one source of support and face the eventual revelation of his terrible destiny by himself. His growing awareness of the unstoppable fate which will unfailingly bring about Dean’s death is superbly portrayed throughout “Mystery Spot”: anguish and impotence ramp up in his soul because of a brother who, lovingly sacrificing himself (by trespassing all kind of boundaries as his father did for him first) to recover his younger sibling from death, might have set him for a destiny even worse.

This is the Sam who falls into Ruby’s trap. Regarding himself as a possible future ‘monster’, he needs to believe there is always hope for redemption for any of them and is therefore open to accept that the demon Ruby might have some good intentions after all, that she might have changed alliances to help protect humanity (given that she once was a human herself) as she says. He is cautious for some time, but finally accepts her as an ally without reservation because of the advantages she brings with her: a demon-killing knife, her help to make the Colt work again and the good information she is ready to share about Lilith and the other demons, but the all important point in his eyes is that she (lying) assures him she might be of help in saving Dean from the hellhounds. Of course, the most relevant information is the one she is not ready to share: her connivance with Lilith in the overall plan to free Lucifer.

It all looks good: she is helping in the fight against evil and even risks her existence to save the brothers in several occasions, saving other people’s lives when fighting at their side. Step by step she gains his trust and when Dean (who never saw in her but what she is: a scheming deceitful demon) died, she had Sam all for herself. In his worst hour of brother-less devastation, when his ability for discernment is at most clouded, Ruby (in her new meatsuit) offers him what he thinks he most needs: company and good-natured support, some apparently well grounded advice and, when he is ready, she lets him suck her veins to increase his thirst for demon blood and his power against evil beings, coaching him in how to use it. She finally offers him some comforting sex, so that, as the accomplished demon temptress she is, Ruby manages to get Sam completely in her power, having become his partner both in the hunting business and in bed, so that he would never listen to Bobby’s advice nor anybody else’s. Sam is apparently just getting all his needs met, but he is actually being headed in the wrongest of directions, as a chosen tool of the forces from Hell, and as a typical side effect (of all this demonic manipulation) he has become unable to see how wrong the whole thing is, although his conscience knows too well when it advises him to keep all of this hidden from his brother Dean, when he unexpectedly comes back from Hell.

The revived Dean sees clearly that nothing good can come out of his brother’s partnership with the she-demon, and nevertheless he seems unable to stop Sam’s progressive drifting away. Dean even tries to seclude him in Bobby’s panic room for his own good, as an attempt to detox him from his addiction to the demon blood. But when Sam is let out of his confinement and decides to go ahead with Ruby’s plans, Dean attempts to bring him back to reason for a last time, giving up after losing a bitter battle against his powerful ‘little’ brother. The older brother adopts at this moment the saddest decision: to consider Sam a ‘monster’ and not his brother anymore, letting him go his own way. Thus, the biggest defeat the Winchesters ever suffered came from the treacherous alliance between Lilith and Ruby, who accomplished the otherwise impossible task to separate the two brothers’ hearts. However the angels did deviously help the demons in this task, by keeping from the Winchesters the big secret about the true nature of the last seal. Only the combined forces of Hell and Heaven were able to cut apart Dean from Sam for enough time so that the door for Lucifer to come into our world could be opened. [What I find most despicable (from the writers in this case) is to have bothered showing us poor Dean regretting what he had earlier said (after Bobby’s judicious scolding) and sending Sam the most beautiful message of reconciliation (exactly what the conflicted little bro just needed so much to hear) and then have some obscure supernatural force change it into a hate message: it’s just so not fair!!]

Anyway, the brothers get reunited again (a little late, when finally Castiel gets to react to what is happening in Heaven in the right way, getting himself killed in the process) and finally finish together the traitor Ruby off, not without her enjoying her triumph first when she got Sam to kill Lilith keeping Dean at bay. With the two big temptresses lying finally dead at their feet, the brothers still know this time something went really wrong, and they are both to be blamed for it (breaking the first and last seal as the demons manipulated them). So they just clutch at each other’s lapels, ready to face together whatever comes, while waiting for the worst of enemies to surface from the finally open underworld cage: Lucifer.

The weapon the Winchesters used against Ruby was her own knife, while Sam killed Lilith with his own abilities strengthened to a maximum by the enormous quantity of demon blood he had ingested. But both demons were actually victorious (as was Azazel) in their plan, playing the brothers in all their weaknesses, especially the highly troubled Sam. The hardest time for Dean had taken place during his stay in Hell at the hands of Alastair (a demon who appears in 5 episodes), another formidable enemy also collaborating in Lucifer’s liberation and who was finally killed by Sam’s powers as well. The brothers have been taken by the most powerful demons to the lowest point in their lives, their brotherhood and their careers (as hunters), forced to witness the onslaught of the Apocalypse with their very eyes. Only a merciful intervention of God’s elevates them from all that misery and gives them a new chance to set things right, but this time they’ll have to face Lucifer himself and the four horsemen, trying to stop them in their design to waste the whole Earth (God thankfully decides to bring back Castiel too, so that this hardest of tasks will be shared by the three of them, with Bobby’s help).

So ‘family’ has gotten a really bad blow, but is still managing to stand, although Sam and Dean decide to stay apart from each other for a while. Until Lucifer (taking the appearance of Jessica) reveals to Sam that he is his true vessel, as Dean is the one needed by his big brother Michael. Sam realizes he needs to keep in touch with his brother to face this situation, although Dean still needs a certain futuristic perspective to be able to arrive to the same conclusion. Whatever problems the Winchesters may have, the Apocalypse is a bigger one and it happens to be doomed to end in a big fight between the two most powerful angelic brothers, who have chosen them as their meatsuits. Dean and Sam don’t want to be reduced to mere vessels, nor want to fight each other to death, but first and foremost they refuse to accept to help bring the end of the world and therefore decide to fight together to give humanity and Earth a chance to survive (instead of going through Armageddon to end up either as Paradise or Hell).

A big cosmic / metaphysical ‘family’ dysfunction is causing the problem here: an absent father who set some apparently irrevocable rules and two brothers who see themselves compelled by them to fight each other to death. Dean and Sam have seen themselves recently in a similar position but have learned too well that they only have each other and their union is their only strength. They both resist giving up their bodies to the archangels until they see no other choice. And then, when Dean gets convinced that he should really say yes to Michael, he still decides to believe in his trusting little brother and stay with him. Sam comes up finally with the suicidal plan to try to overpower Lucifer while acting as his vessel, in order to jump with him back in the cage (which they will be able to open again with the four horsemen’s rings). And Dean accepts this plan as the only possible solution, as the big sacrifice the ultimate survival of humanity requires from them. It’s their job, “saving people, hunting things”, taken to the maximum level: saving all people while hunting the evilest of things, it’s their family’s business and their family’s fate.

But still when the plan goes wrong and Sam finds himself unable to overpower Lucifer’s will, Dean will just not give up. His only place is standing by his brother, going down with him if necessary. So he gathers his last resources, his car and his two desperate friends, to go and face the fighting archangels in their battlefield. He has no plan, just needs to tell Sam he is there for him, and after Castiel and Bobby fall to Lucifer’s wrath, he prepares to get beaten up to a pulp by the strong fists of his once brother. And then the miracle happens: the brotherly love which has bonded them together for so long, embodied by the faithful Impala, catches Sam’s own eyes and helps him take Lucifer’s will by surprise. It’s only a moment, but the only one he needs to overpower the devil and send him back where he belongs, bringing also Michael (together with his vessel Adam and himself) down to the pit.

And thus a broken family, destroyed by Azazel’s murderous plans and devastated by Ruby’s deceit, rose from its comatose state in the desperate times of the Apocalypse, reviving to regain its strongest shape. The Winchesters most important victory was won by their hearts, which had been trained in the hardest of sacrifices and strung together by the strongest of bonds. It is finally revealed that the biggest blows they received from their earlier enemies only made their bond grow tighter and prepared them better for the final fight. Family love was thus demonstrated to be, before Heaven and Hell, the strongest weapon of humanity against all kind of enemies, and fiercely resistant to all intentions to have it blown away. Where no sigil, no charm, no Colt and no supernatural power could be found to even hurt the quintessential Adversary, the trick was done by the sacrifice of two brothers, committed to help each other and any innocent person beyond their own deaths.

But the biggest of victories also got them completely separated, leaving Dean in a bitter state. But not family-less, because Sam had made him promise that he would go back to Lisa and Ben and try to build a family with them. The story which begun with a family getting broken apart (in the Pilot) ends (in Kripke’s last episode as showrunner) with a promising new family getting together. During their journey none of the brothers could ever find a satisfactory romantic relationship because their brotherly bond was the most important asset for their jobs, for the foremost important mission they had been unknowingly assigned with since Azazel set their fates. Dean had already realized how problematic was it all with Cassie (1.13) and had contented himself with occasional sex (2.18, 3.1, 4.10), but after meeting Lisa and Ben (3.2) his heart had yearned to be able to go back with them. Once their main mission had been fulfilled, he was given the chance to obtain this desire, letting a devil-less world take care of itself. But new forces will again break the balance, wait... do they come from enemies or friends?

(The angels, including Castiel, and other characters who could also fall in the strange category of enemies-friends will be analysed in my last post, which I won’t probably be able to write until the end of this month. Thank you all for your appreciation and patience).
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby Bec666 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:43 pm

Outstanding Aaronia! That was a wonderful read. I think you nailed Sam's feelings about himself and Ruby. I had a friend say he trusted her way too quickly. I never thought so. I always felt he didn't trust her until after Dean died and then he just didn't care anymore. He wanted to die and didn't care about what happened to him. Ruby moved in at the opportune moment when he was at his weakest.

Great job as always.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby CLDeangrl on Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:14 pm

It’s their job, “saving people, hunting things”, taken to the maximum level: saving all people while hunting the evilest of things, it’s their family’s business and their family’s fate.


OUTSTANDING post, Aaronia, and the sentence I quoted above is just masterful. A perfect summary of the ultimate battle the Winchester brothers faced. Love it!

I agree that you hit on both Sam and Dean's feelings perfectly. Poor Sam has been at other beings' mercy from the time he was six months old, all of which left him ripe for the pickings by the time Dean was gone and Ruby saw her opening.

As for Dean, I do think that ultimately he was more attracted to the idea of a family than he ever really was to Lisa herself. Had it not been for Ben, I don't think he'd have given Lisa any more thought than he did Cassie or any of the other women he'd been with once the "end" seemed to be near. It was the idea of a family that Ben represented that drew him to them, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

Again...NICE job, love it!
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby Aaronia on Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:09 pm

Hi, again. Thanks, Bec666, I like how you explain Sam’s situation when Ruby made her move. And regarding Lisa, CLDeangrl, you are right that Dean was mainly attracted to the idea of Ben being his son, or at least being able to act as a father figure to him (because the father/son relationship is so important to him ). But I believe he also loved Lisa, and she was the only woman who, knowing who he really was, still offered him to stay with her, so that made her special in his eyes. He did dream of her and was perfectly honest when he told her he always pictured himself happy with her and her son.

I’m sorry that I have been unable to write what I wanted to say about the angels. The time I had for writing this, I have spent it browsing other websites where a lot has already being discussed about these matters. It’s what happens when one comes to the fandom so late. Today I’m posting a brief comment about other friends/enemies of our guys, but the main piece about Castiel and the angels will have to wait for sometime in September, when I hope to have some time for this kind of writings again. Hopefully before Supernatural comes back on the 23rd.


FRIENDS-ENEMIES OF THE WINCHESTERS


The Winchester brothers were actually raised into the Hunting business since they were kids (as were Mary and Jo), but they also were raised ‘together’, so that they grew to be a hell of a team, and they almost were raised ‘by themselves’, so that they early learned the hard way that they had nothing else but each other, what is the ultimate cause which forged between them the strongest of bonds.

At first they just wanted to protect each other and their dad from the ‘things out there’, and of course avenge their mother (and later also Jessica), but they soon acquired a sense of responsibility for any human life put at risk whenever a monster was involved. They had the knowledge and the ability to recognize the supernatural threats and fight them, and this led them to feel compelled to be there for anyone in need, even if their efforts rarely were thanked or even noticed by any of the people saved by them, let alone ‘paid for’. That’s why it is kind of endearing that they keep talking about ‘doing their job’ or the ‘family business’, because their work do not get them any income at all, just a lot of danger and even costs, although when they do it well they do get some real internal satisfaction.

The problem is that in order to fulfil this obligation with humanity they have become ‘outcasts’. With their occupation, they cannot engage in any kind of regular romantic nor employment relations. So that, apart from the often problematic ‘hunting’ family, they don’t really belong to the normal social institutions, even if they are committed to their protection. This situation has a lot to do with their strained relation with cops, FBI agents and other law enforcement officers. Usually Sam and Dean take care of a case whenever it has gone beyond the capacity of other ‘protective’ institutions, but there have been occasions when the distinctions were not so clear and moreover, as a regular basis, they illegally impersonate police related staff to use their prerogatives in order to do the necessary research (besides of some credit card scams that help them get their money to survive). Therefore, despite their similar vocation of averting danger for civilians, we find the brothers facing law problems since the pilot, although some cops/agents eventually get to understand their important mission and finally agree to help them along: Sheriff Devins in 1.3, cops Kathleen and Diana in 1.15 and 2.7, Sheriff Mills in 5.15 (and 6.4, helping Bobby instead of the brothers) and most relevantly FBI Special Agent Victor Henriksen (4 episodes), who, after pursuing Dean and Sam since 2.12 (also for the cases in 1.6 and 2.7) and catching and losing them in 2.19, takes all precautions against their escape while holding them in custody in 3.12, until a massive demon attack turns all agents and cops in the station (together with their assistant Nancy)into the Winchesters’ avid disciples in order to quickly learn the basics of demon fighting (only to be later killed by Lilith). Unfortunately, Henriksen comes back after death to haunt them, becoming their enemy again (as do Ronald Resnick and the human Meg Masters, who also had once be friendly ). Together with Gordon Walker, the persistent FBI pursuer got to be the hardest human adversary of the Winchester brothers, turning both ultimately from partners and friends into monsters (vampire/ghost) who had to be put away. (Samuel Campbell falls also into this category: a human –although resurrected – friend, their grandfather, who becomes a tough adversary –betraying them to Crowley– and then turns into a monster who has to be wasted by his grandsons).

The Winchesters’ mission got even more complicated when (besides fighting demons and all kind of monsters) not only they had to watch out for overzealous agents and hunters, who deemed them too dangerous for the human society, but also had to look out for a special con artist, specialized in dealing with artifacts of supernatural power, who didn’t hesitate to turn them in to their enemies whenever it would suit her interests. Bela Talbot (6 episodes) proved to be a tough adversary for our boys, as she almost always obtained what she wanted from them, while stealing their money or, even worse, their valuable demon killing Colt. The brothers and Bela did also cooperate in a few cases, but she had always her own agenda and was ready to sell them at any given moment, or even to kill them at Lilith’s request, as a last attempt to pay this demon her debt, finally claimed by the hellhounds ten years after she made her deal and just a few days before Dean’s own deal was also due. Bela’s tragic story shows how the knowledge about supernatural forces could also be used to one’s own advantage, instead of the selfless efforts of the hunting business. Despite the annoyance she would always cause them, the Winchesters mostly respected her life as a fellow human being, even running to her rescue when needed, but instead of joining efforts with them she decided to fight her demons alone and finally died by herself.

We finalize this chapter with those ‘friendly’ humans who, without turning into direct adversaries, would get to be a nuisance most of the time or even put our guys unnecessarily in danger. Most of them could also fall in the category of ‘amateur’ hunters, as Ronald Reznick (in the pursuit of ‘mandroids’) and the Ghostfacers (Ed Zeddmore, Harry Spangler and the rest of their team). On the other hand, although being a bit of a nuisance themselves and also qualifying as ‘amateur hunters’, the ‘Supernatural’ books’ fans (as superfan Becky Rosen and fanboys Demian and Barnes) managed to make themselves quite helpful, as also did Chuck Shurley (6 episodes), but the story of the prophet could as well be told together with the one related to the confusing behaviour of the hosts of heaven.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby CLDeangrl on Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:27 pm

More great thoughts. I have to continue to differ on the subject of Lisa. Yes, it did make her stand out that she continued to support Dean even knowing what he did for a living and I gave her a lot of credit for trying to make a "long distance" relationship of sorts work, with him on the road hunting and coming back to them when he could, and while I don't doubt there was some genuine feeling between them, I still think that it was the idea of a family more than any really strong feelings for Lisa herself that drew Dean to Lisa and Ben. The reason he dreamed about them when he thought of being happy wasn't because of Lisa, it was because he was still dreaming of having a family, as he'd been doing since Season One (remember in "Shadow", he said to Sam when they finally killed YED all he wanted was them to be together as a family again...that's his deepest desire and that's why it came out in his dreams in the person of Lisa and Ben.).

As for the rest...agreed on all of it. And I loved the episode with the fan convention, specifically because of the addition of Damian and Barnes and the way they made Dean realize just how much he really has and how important his connection to Sam is. And of course Chuck was an inspired addition who we didn't really get to fully appreciate until the end of Season 5.

Good stuff as usual, Aaronia! :)
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby max47 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:48 pm

everyone will have a different opinion on this, but personally i never thought it was just about the idea of family, considering he was thinking about two specific constant people instead of interchangable or faceless substitutes. i believe he used to, like with carmen, who was just na inserted face of a model in a beer add, but since he then -once he met her again -always thought about lisa shows to me it was really about her and not an abstract idea anymore.
also whether or not it was true before, since he got to know the reality and didn t change his mind, i think by s6 it definitely was( about her). i never had problems buying that he loved her, i think they showed he was in love with her as much as they did for jess/sam and mary john.
not that it matters since it seems he is over her now since the writers decided to make them brake up basically over missing each others calls and cindy said she doubts she ll be back.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby CLDeangrl on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:10 pm

Sorry, can't agree there. I still say it was the idea of family. Specifically, it was Ben more than Lisa that he was drawn to. If Ben hadn't been in the picture, I don't see Dean going back to Lisa any more than he did to any of the other women he'd met in his life. If it was ever going to be about love, I'd have expected him to go back to Cassie before he did Lisa. Lisa was just a fun weekend that he wanted to relive one more time before his deal came due in Season 3. Then when he showed up and found out about Ben, he was suddenly faced with the concept of actually having a family and that's what appealed to him. I DEFINITELY do not see him having the same kind of connection with Lisa as John had with Mary or Sam had with Jess. I just don't think it was there, but that's just me.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby max47 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:58 am

well since we only saw one scene between s/j and several sweet goodbye scenes like that with d/ l , i really did see the same connection. or m/j. especially when you look at the eps where they were actally a couple like 6x1-6x5.also they loved together almost as long as s/j.
not arguing they kind of re wrote her after her first appearance in 3x2, but i was fine with that.
i just never think it was about ben and maybe more that he saw a different side of her since she had changed since they last saw each other and now had a son.
iBut seriously escpecially casssie i never saw the love just because sam said he loved her, they also only dated for 1-2 weeks tops, she was a bitch to him twice and i didn t see ANY connection or understanding,and it was clear since at least wiawsnb that he wasn t thinking about her at all anymore.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby CLDeangrl on Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:17 pm

First off...a bitch? She dumped him the first time because she thought he made up the stuff about hunting ghosts to dump her. The fact that he actually told her the truth about what he did, that he actually dated her for more than a night or two and that he obviously still had feelings for her when they reconnected was more than ample proof that he was serious. For Dean, that's about as serious as it gets.

Once they reconnected, I didn't see her being a bitch to him at all. I think she genuinely had feelings for him too and once she realized he'd been telling her the truth, she was able to express that.

So I don't get where you see her being "a bitch to him twice".

As for LIsa...nope, it was Ben. Dean wanted a family. Suddenly, he was faced with the notion that this kid might actually be his son. And Dean being Dean, he felt a responsibility to step in and take care of them both. That doesn't mean he was in love with Lisa.

Yes, we only saw a couple of fleeting moments of Sam and Jess together but even in that brief amount of time you could see there was a real connection. And if there were any doubt, Sam's reaction after losing her certainly proved it.

Mary and John is completely different...I saw them as genuine soul mates, meant to be together. I certainly didn't see that kind of connection with Dean and Lisa. Maybe in another time and place, if he weren't a hunter, they might have gotten to that point, but as it was, it just wasn't going to happen. Way too much water under the bridge by that point.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby theartist27 on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:29 pm

CLDeangrl wrote:First off...a bitch? She dumped him the first time because she thought he made up the stuff about hunting ghosts to dump her. The fact that he actually told her the truth about what he did, that he actually dated her for more than a night or two and that he obviously still had feelings for her when they reconnected was more than ample proof that he was serious. For Dean, that's about as serious as it gets.

Once they reconnected, I didn't see her being a bitch to him at all. I think she genuinely had feelings for him too and once she realized he'd been telling her the truth, she was able to express that.

So I don't get where you see her being "a bitch to him twice".

As for LIsa...nope, it was Ben. Dean wanted a family. Suddenly, he was faced with the notion that this kid might actually be his son. And Dean being Dean, he felt a responsibility to step in and take care of them both. That doesn't mean he was in love with Lisa.

Yes, we only saw a couple of fleeting moments of Sam and Jess together but even in that brief amount of time you could see there was a real connection. And if there were any doubt, Sam's reaction after losing her certainly proved it.

Mary and John is completely different...I saw them as genuine soul mates, meant to be together. I certainly didn't see that kind of connection with Dean and Lisa. Maybe in another time and place, if he weren't a hunter, they might have gotten to that point, but as it was, it just wasn't going to happen. Way too much water under the bridge by that point.

I have to say that I agree with you on the Cassie front. I felt that she genuinely had feelings for Dean. At the same time she recognized that a relationship with Dean would not work. She was mature enough to let him go in the end.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby max47 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:41 am

and i could see a genune connection even in the few scenes we saw of lisa/ dean as a couple.it s really very subjective .
also in the dreams we actually he alsways dreamed about only her , 6x3 and 3x10, so i still don t think it was all about ben, and when he thought he was dying he only had to see her, it was never like he was all about ben and she was just tagged on. Especially considering he wasn t even his biological kid otherwise i might agree with you, but since he wasn t i don t see how it wouldn t be more about whose kid he was( as in lisas), otherwise he could just pick any other kid he met over the years.ok he thought he was for a second, but it was confirmed pretty quickly that he really wasnt.
but i didn t want to start another lisa debate just forget it go back to your previous discussions.
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Re: A Supernatural Characters’ Study

Postby CLDeangrl on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:45 pm

No reason not to discuss it. Ben wasn't just any kid, Dean thought he was HIS kid. There was always some question there. And I think it was that idea that made the difference. Up until that moment, I don't think Dean had ever entertained the notion of actually being able to have a family of his own...remember in the early seasons he was always telling Sam not to get too close to anyone because it just complicated matters. That was the way he thought all along until suddenly he was faced the idea that this kid might actually be his. And he developed a soft spot for Ben, even though Lisa said he wasn't Dean's. That's what made Dean go back there when he thought he was going to say yes to Michael and the world was going to end. He was looking out for them. I'm not saying he didn't have feelings for LIsa, obviously he did, but I honestly think it was more that idea of family that made her stand out for him rather than any genuine romantic connection. I just never saw that with them.

And if you want to be technical about his dreams and fantasy...when he went to his ideal "fantasy" life in "What Is And Never Should Be", it was Carmen he was with...a woman whose face he saw in a magazine...not LIsa or Cassie. So I really don't think he was only dreaming about Lisa. He was dreaming about having a real, "apple pie" type life and it centered around Lisa because of Ben. Just my thought. :)
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