[Official] The Walking Dead Ep. 2.03 Discussion

[Bec666]

Even though I personally hate what Shane did and it has aggravated how much I dislike him as a person, I agree with you guys that the whole thing makes him way more interesting as a character, and it adds a lot to the plot and the relationships within. It also raises a few questions around him like what else is he capable of? How further will he go down the dark path? What is he going to do next? Will he separate from the group?

I feel the same way! I hated what Shane did and how he did it. I mean he used Otis as 'live bait'. And personally I would love to see Shane strung up as Zombie supper. But the twist in the storyline opens the door to so many more possibilities. Just how far will Shane go now that he's killed? Will he turn on the group? Or more importantly will he turn on Rick and kill him. Make it look like the zombies and then he's got a clear shot to the wife and kid.

My own personal opinion is, someone, either Rick or Daryl will have to kill him at some point. I won't shed many tears. I mean the way he left Otis was just disgusting.

Oh, and the hanging Zombie?? Had me in tears I was laughing so hard!

[CLDeangrl]

I loved this episode and I loved what Shane did. Not that I think Otis deserved it or that it was the only way out, but it raised such an interesting moral question and a great juxtaposition between Rick and Shane.

For Rick, moral issues are very black and white, there is no question about what is right and what is wrong. But Shane sees shades of grey. The survivors are living in a new reality where maybe they don't have the luxury of making such clear distinctions. Doing the right thing is not necessarily going to help you survive.

I think Shane did what he thought he had to do. It is not clear if he did it for Lori, for Carl, or just to save his own ass, but he thought it was what he needed to do to survive. And he's done it before, he left Rick for dead when it was clear he had to get out of the hospital or they would both die. In this new reality do these actions make him evil or just a survivor?

Lori gave a big speech about not wanting her child to grow up to be an animal that knows nothing but survival. By the end of the episode it looks like Shane is turning into that animaI. How will she feel when she finds out what Shane has done, and that her family benefited from the murder? I can't wait!

Couldn't agree more. Shane is a very complex character, as are most of the characters really. I'm torn about him...I hate some of the things he done, such as killing Otis, but I also feel that there's still some basic humanity in there that's saving him from being nothing but a cold hearted killer.

I do think, though, that the circumstances under which they're living can make anyone turn from the way they would normally act and do things outside their normal character. The question is, how far are any of them willing to go? Survival instinct is pretty basic human nature, but how far will they let it take them?

I think Shane has already shown us, between beating up Ed, almost killing Rick and killing Otis, that he's willing to do whatever it takes and without Rick to act as his moral compass, he could easily turn. And that actually makes him a bigger threat to the others than the zombies are.

It does bring up a lot of intriguing questions from a human nature standpoint...not only about how Lori and Rick will react when the truth comes out but how the others will react to him too.

And as intriguing as Shane is, Daryl is even moreso. I am totally LOVING him! The whole section there with him and Andrea in the woods was a real eye opener. It's amazing how he's totally turning in the opposite direction...finally becoming his own man now that he's out from under Merle's wing. It's awesome to see and yet another incredle human twist to this amazing story.

Oh, and I have to wonder whether we've really seen the last of Merle. Would be interesting to see what happened if he suddenly showed up now, wouldn't it?

[supermodel]

I understand why it had to be done for survival purposes but why not let Otis die without knowing he was being ripped piece by piece from the Walkers!

I agre with Bec666, I think Shane felt live bait would squirm around and attract more attention from the walkers. If Otis just lay there quietly, maybe some of them would continue to pursue Shane? It was a seriously cold-blooded move.

I do think, though, that the circumstances under which they're living can make anyone turn from the way they would normally act and do things outside their normal character. The question is, how far are any of them willing to go? Survival instinct is pretty basic human nature, but how far will they let it take them?

Like chopping off your own hand? Wow, how cool would it be to see Shane vs. Merle?

Robert Kirkman has often said that The Walking Dead isn't just about the zombia apocalypse, it is about how the situation changes people, particularly Rick. And I am sure Rick will change. Maybe not to the extreme that Shane has but I wonder how long it will be before Rick becomes a little colder and more pragmatic. (Although has Shane changed or was he always a self-absorbed woman-hating jerk?)

[isabelle]

I know the situation they're living is not easy and it's not fair to judge it from our comfortable situation, but seems to me Shane's moral compass, his nature as a whole has always tended to be unstable and to the dark side, more and more each time. He chose no one else but his best friend's wife to have a relationship with convincing her he was dead, attacked Lori at the CDC when she rejected him and, let's not forget this, thought of shooting Rick when they were at the woods but was thankfully stopped by Dale. Then, he shot the man who refused to leave him behind and, very coldly, chose to shoot him in the leg, not the head, something that would've been more compassionate.

I think, in terms of this bolded part that Shane truly thought Rick was dead. He did put his ear to Rick chest and didn't hear a heartbeat. I mean, of course there was one but I don't think Shane was calm enough or focused enough to hear it, what with everything else going on at the time.

I don't blame him for getting close to Lori at the time as they both though Rick was dead so it makes sense that they would bond and I think at first it was about honouring his best friend by keeping his family alive.

But other than that, I agree that Shane is totally unstable ad dangerous (partly why I love him lol) and thought he was awful for attacking Lori and considering shooting Rick. At the same time, I really like to believe that Shane wouldn' have actually gone through with either of those things but maybe thats me being to optimistic!

I also think that Otis needed to be alive otherwise the walkers might not have paid attention to him and even if thats not the case, maybe Shane believed that was the case. I know it was cold and probably unnecessary but I think he wanted to be 100% sure that he could get the medical supplies back to Carl and if he and Otis had just kept going as they were, their chances were more likely 50/50. But also, before all this Shane told Otis to go on without him and Otis wouldn't leave him, so I think thats when Shane knew that if anyone was going to be sacrificed, it would be Otis rather than himself because at least then he knows for sure that the supplies would get to the farm.

I've seen people on other sites think about what Rick or Daryl would have done in this situation. What do you guys think? I don't think Rick would have even entertained the possibilty of doing what Shane did but I also think that Rick would have thought things through a littler clearer from the beginning so that things would have gone a lot more smoothly and wouldn't have come to this. Not necessarily though, and if it did come down to the same thing then I think Rick would have taken his chances with Otis even if those chances weren't great! Maybe they would have done the 'dress up as walkers' thing he did with Glenn in Atlanta...

No idea what Daryl would have done though!

p.s. I have Michael Rooker withdrawals and need him back on the show ASAP!

[PandaVamp]

Then, he shot the man who refused to leave him behind and, very coldly, chose to shoot him in the leg, not the head, something that would've been more compassionate.

This is exactly what I was thinking too PandaVamp. I understand why it had to be done for survival purposes but why not let Otis die without knowing he was being ripped piece by piece from the Walkers! That was just horrible and the fear from Otis as he ripped a chunk of Shane's hair showed how desperate he was.

Yes, it was so awful... my skin crawls every single time I think about it.

I still don't believe it needed to be done, though. It took a while from the time he shot and fought with Otis to take to bag to the time the walkers reached him. I think that with that time, they both could have escaped alive, but guess Shane wanted to be sure.

All that's going on with them only makes me think that in a situation like this, I probably wouldn't trust anyone, (only my close family). I'm sure there are hundreds of Shanes out there who might want to use you to save their own asses.

I also think that acknowledgment from Lori to stay with the group will only feed Shane's belief that what he did was okay.

Yep, and probably he will keep on trying to get her back until Rick finds out. And when that time comes, things are going to get really interesting, oh yes.

Having that poor guy turned into a walker while he hangs there in the tree was just sad. They have taken zombies to a whole new level, imo! I also liked the fact that it was Daryl and Andrea who find him since she sees first hand that sometimes living might be a little better after all. Daryl has this new compassion that is great since we saw how mean he was during season one.

Yes, it was very sad. And yes, I think it was good Andrea saw him. This was a very interesting episode for the keep going/give up in this new world debate. Although I understand Andrea's and Lori's respective positions and have thought of it myself (that it's not a world for kids), ultimately I think more along the lines of Rick and Dale: as long as you're alive, there's hope.

About Daryl, absolutely. During S1 I saw flashes of compassion in him, but the time he's spent with these people and what they have gone through together is bringing out the best out of him without making him lose his edge and personality. Makes me think of what's going to happen between him and Merle if we ever see him again. Should be interesting.

And personally I would love to see Shane strung up as Zombie supper.

Although I don't think it's possible, I thought of how good it would be to see a zombified Otis chasing him. Maybe he can have a nightmare or two about it.

I think Shane has already shown us, between beating up Ed, almost killing Rick and killing Otis, that he's willing to do whatever it takes and without Rick to act as his moral compass, he could easily turn. And that actually makes him a bigger threat to the others than the zombies are.

Exactly and I can only imagine him becoming that eventually, a threat rather than a helpful friend. How long can unknowing Rick contain Shane's primal nature? I bet Rick is going to find out a couple of things sooner or later and he will confront Shane and who knows how is he going to react. Because that's the most interesting thing about Shane, how unpredictable he's turning out to be.

Oh, and I have to wonder whether we've really seen the last of Merle. Would be interesting to see what happened if he suddenly showed up now, wouldn't it?

Yes, that's one of the things I think the fandom is waiting for the most, Merle and the group's reunion, specially with Daryl.

Sometimes, the idea of Merle following the group closely crosses my mind. I keep on thinking he's the one who brought the walkers to the group the night Andrea's sister was bitten. Also makes me think of the possibility of him being the one who took Sophia... I mean, someone must have taken her, either that or a walker ate her, otherwise I don't get how a 12 year old girl can disappear like that for so long.

Although has Shane changed or was he always a self-absorbed woman-hating jerk?

That's the thing. I tend to believe it was always an inherent part of his nature, of course, reinforced by the situation they're going through. It's really interesting to see how this zombie apocalypse brings out the best and the worst out of them.

I don't blame him for getting close to Lori at the time as they both though Rick was dead so it makes sense that they would bond and I think at first it was about honouring his best friend by keeping his family alive.

But how much time went from the time he left Rick at the hospital and the moment he and Lori decided to have their fun time together? I don't know, maybe I'm too judgemental but I have a hard time understanding how someone can go and have a thing with his best friend's significant other, dead or not. It's something that usually happens on TV shows and movies, and probably real life, but it always rubs me the wrong way and was the first thing to make me dislike Shane and Lori, but certainly more Shane.

But other than that, I agree that Shane is totally unstable ad dangerous (partly why I love him lol) and thought he was awful for attacking Lori and considering shooting Rick. At the same time, I really like to believe that Shane wouldn' have actually gone through with either of those things but maybe thats me being to optimistic!

Yeah. The good thing about this show is that I think no one is completely good or bad. I agree there's good in Shane. I was actually starting to warm up to him, and if it wasn't because of what happened, right now I'd see him with different eyes.

I also think that Otis needed to be alive otherwise the walkers might not have paid attention to him and even if thats not the case, maybe Shane believed that was the case.

Yes, probably... at least, that's what I've read the most, that he probably thought that, although I think we know that wouldn't have been necessary. If he shot Otis in the head, he would still be warm and yummy for the walkers to get distracted. I mean, they got distracted with flares to begin with, warm meat would definitely do the work as well.

My biggest problem with Shane's actions is precisely the idea of all kinds of things becoming valid as means to an end. He did not respect Otis will to live, and not respecting others' lives, innocent lives, people who are under his same situation... Is there a way back after you cross that line? Maybe there is, but I don't think so. For me, he's doomed.

I've seen people on other sites think about what Rick or Daryl would have done in this situation. What do you guys think? I don't think Rick would have even entertained the possibilty of doing what Shane did but I also think that Rick would have thought things through a littler clearer from the beginning so that things would have gone a lot more smoothly and wouldn't have come to this. Not necessarily though, and if it did come down to the same thing then I think Rick would have taken his chances with Otis even if those chances weren't great! Maybe they would have done the 'dress up as walkers' thing he did with Glenn in Atlanta...

No idea what Daryl would have done though!

That's a cool thing to think of, I mean, how would others react.

I agree with you about Rick, on both things. I don't think he would have done what Shane did, not even being about his son's life and certainly would have thought of a better plan. Rick might change eventually and get more pragmatic, but right now he's too correct to even think of something along the lines of Shane's actions.

About Daryl, I read somewhere someone saying he probably would have gone there alone and not only bring the medical supplies but other useful stuff. I think maybe it's a bit exaggerated, but he's a very savvy guy, so I think he probably would have done better than Shane. Plus, Daryl would have no hidden intentions behind the whole thing.

[Joshua]

Sometimes, the idea of Merle following the group closely crosses my mind. I keep on thinking he's the one who brought the walkers to the group the night Andrea's sister was bitten. Also makes me think of the possibility of him being the one who took Sophia... I mean, someone must have taken her, either that or a walker ate her, otherwise I don't get how a 12 year old girl can disappear like that for so long.

Ooh, very interesting! I think you're on to something there!

I liked the episode, although I found the quite short Otis/Shane scenes annoying as they served only to break up the otherwise dull Lori/Carl/Rick scenes which has been drawn out to this episode.

Daryl has pulled a real Sawyer In-crisis-bad-guy-turns-good if ya know what I mean.

I really liked the zombie in the tree - it really did make you think, and was actually quite sad.

Oh, and I thought the Otis/Shane twist was really predictable.

[supermodel]

I know Shane's actions were horrible, but it was just so awesome. I write a weekly review for another site,
and I'm late this week and trying to finish tonight, and I am actually sitting here smiling as I write about it. The stakes are so much higher now, and we're all in on this horrible secret, and it raises so many discussions. This was truly a watercooler episode.

Also makes me think of the possibility of [Merle] him being the one who took Sophia...

Holy cow, that would be incredible and it could be possible. You're a genius.

I also think that Rick would have thought things through a littler clearer from the beginning.

Yeah, Shane is not really a planner, he is more reactive. Did you notice it was Otis who came up with all the good ideas?

Maybe they would have done the 'dress up as walkers' thing he did with Glenn in Atlanta...

Seriously, why don't they do this all the time? They know it works, they should just bust open a dead zombie whenever they need to infiltrate someplace. I know, they can't show that every week, the show would be boring.

ETA: Really Joshua? You are the first person I've come across who was not shocked. Maybe you should be a TV writer!

[PandaVamp]

I liked the episode, although I found the quite short Otis/Shane scenes annoying as they served only to break up the otherwise dull Lori/Carl/Rick scenes which has been drawn out to this episode.

One of my favourite scenes of the whole episode was actually Lori and Rick's conversation about Carl... it gave me some real goosebumps. I love it when you see an argument and can feel empathy towards both sides, that happened to me with their discussion.

Daryl has pulled a real Sawyer In-crisis-bad-guy-turns-good if ya know what I mean.

Haha, maybe that's why I've always liked the guy. But really, I think Daryl is even more popular than Sawyer, who had his fair share of detractors. Everywhere I go, everyone loves Daryl now.

Oh, and I thought the Otis/Shane twist was really predictable.

Really?

I was almost certain Otis was going to die, which made me sad because, even if we didn't know him well, I really liked him, but never, ever expected Shane to do what he did. I'm still in shock, to be honest.

I know Shane's actions were horrible, but it was just so awesome. I write a weekly review for another site, and I'm late this week and trying to finish tonight, and I am actually sitting here smiling as I write about it. The stakes are so much higher now, and we're all in on this horrible secret, and it raises so many discussions. This was truly a watercooler episode.

I know, right? It was a fantastic and very gutsy thing to do from the show writers. Everyone is talking about it, so many thoughts.

Would love to read your review when you post it, btw.

Holy cow, that would be incredible and it could be possible. You're a genius.

Awww, I wish. But really, can you imagine Daryl's reaction to it? He finds Sophia and his brother at the same time. But whatever happens, if we see Merle again, I think he's going to become a big threat to the group and that's something that would really put Daryl to the test. I can't wait.

[supermodel]

I have to say, I think Norman Reedus' delivery hasn't been great these last two weeks. I think he's a wonderful actor but he has been a bit off. But I guess every actor is entitled to a less-than-excellent week. Maybe he's trying to get comfortable with the somewhat sudden change in his character.

[CLDeangrl]

I've seen people on other sites think about what Rick or Daryl would have done in this situation. What do you guys think? I don't think Rick would have even entertained the possibilty of doing what Shane did but I also think that Rick would have thought things through a littler clearer from the beginning so that things would have gone a lot more smoothly and wouldn't have come to this. Not necessarily though, and if it did come down to the same thing then I think Rick would have taken his chances with Otis even if those chances weren't great! Maybe they would have done the 'dress up as walkers' thing he did with Glenn in Atlanta...

Can't agree on Rick's reaction. Yes, he's been the moral compass, but all that goes out the window when you're talking about a parent defending his child. I think if Rick were in that circumstance and Carl's life were depending on it, he'd have done whatever it took to get those medical supplies back to the doctor. As it was, he gave way more blood than he should have and didn't even think twice about it. He would have hesitated more than Shane did and felt more guilt, but I still think he would've done it.

About Daryl, I read somewhere someone saying he probably would have gone there alone and not only bring the medical supplies but other useful stuff. I think maybe it's a bit exaggerated, but he's a very savvy guy, so I think he probably would have done better than Shane. Plus, Daryl would have no hidden intentions behind the whole thing.

Hell yes...Daryl would've gotten the job done with no complications...he rocks!

Yeah. The good thing about this show is that I think no one is completely good or bad. I agree there's good in Shane. I was actually starting to warm up to him, and if it wasn't because of what happened, right now I'd see him with different eyes.

Agreed...that's the really intriguing thing about this show...everyone's got their good and bad qualities. I've been torn about Shane all along...parts of him disgust me but other parts I can empathize with. You just never know how anyone would react under these circumstances.

[supermodel]

As it was, he gave way more blood than he should have and didn't even think twice about it.

Yes, but that's what Rick does. He risks his own life time and again. He would be the one urging Otis to go on without him. We're talking about a man who went back for Merle. No way would he shoot Otis in cold blood.

[Bec666]

As it was, he gave way more blood than he should have and didn't even think twice about it.

Yes, but that's what Rick does. He risks his own life time and again. He would be the one urging Otis to go on without him. We're talking about a man who went back for Merle. No way would he shoot Otis in cold blood.

I couldn't agree more! Rick would have never killed Otis like that. He's been the one to risk his life for the others every time.

[Joshua]

ETA: Really Joshua? You are the first person I've come across who was not shocked. Maybe you should be a TV writer!

As soon as we saw Shane back in with the truck without Otis, I'd guessed what happened.

[CLDeangrl]

As it was, he gave way more blood than he should have and didn't even think twice about it.

Yes, but that's what Rick does. He risks his own life time and again. He would be the one urging Otis to go on without him. We're talking about a man who went back for Merle. No way would he shoot Otis in cold blood.

Very good point about him going back for Merle. But we're talking about his child here. I think we might have seen that stretching even his moral bounds. But I do agree that he probably would've sacrificed himself and given Otis the ability to get away before killing Otis...it was late when I posted my response and I didn't think that through all the way, in the light of day I've got to agree.

[NK-Metal]

I was also not really surprised that Shane shot Otis... I was a bit shocked of course, but it didn't surprise me and I guessed that Shane had something to do with Otis' death.